Former ACLU Lawyer, Rees Lloyd Leads Battle To Save Mt. Soledad Cross (Video)
Posted on May 26, 2006
Video courtesy of Terrence at Little Rock at the Cove who has more.
Also see my interview with Rees Lloyd.
Lorie Byrd has a roundup for ways to remember our vets this Memorial Day Weekend, and wants your input.
Michelle Malkin has a roundup too.
Do your part: Email President Bush and tell him to transfer land to the National Park Service. Sign the ACLJ’s Petition.
» Filed Under ACLU, Church And State, News
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15 Responses to “Former ACLU Lawyer, Rees Lloyd Leads Battle To Save Mt. Soledad Cross (Video)”
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It broke my heart to hear Lawyer Reese Lloyd speak about fighting. He even mentioned fighting in the street. Why!? Why does he have to bring violence into this? It seems that the defenders of the cross are savage.
Wouldn’t we honor our brave men who gave their lives to defend the freedom by having a memorial that better represented all of them?
Where all the brave men Christians? I doubt it? Who many men are you disrespecting by having a cross in their name. How would a Christian like a Star of David to be remembered by?
The facts are the ACLU and freethinkers of this country use the law, reason and the constitution of this country to fight for their rights, not violence. Very rarely do you see people argue over the laws themselves.
It seems the only arguments that exist, is when groups (such as stopTheACLU and Religious fundamentalists) want to work outside the laws. That is what this is. It is an illegal situation. Not sure what the religious affiliation of the judge is, but from a purely statistical basis, he is probably religious in nature.
His ruling is his job. He is upholding the laws that exist from an objective perspective which is more than what I can say for you. You people are dirty. You people defend a Cross, a symbol of love and truth, yet you defy it regularly with such nonsense.
Leandro,
Freethinker
http://www.freethoughtnews.com
LeandroMan,
Does that mean you aren’t going to sign the ACLJ petition?
“The facts are the ACLU and freethinkers of this country use the law, reason and the constitution of this country to fight for their rights, not violence.”
Whose rights are being violated in this instance? If the Cross offends, too bad. There is not right to not be offended in our Constitution.
“His ruling is his job. He is upholding the laws that exist from an objective perspective which is more than what I can say for you. You people are dirty. You people defend a Cross, a symbol of love and truth, yet you defy it regularly with such nonsense.”
Yes, very objective from an organization that recieves funds from left-wing anti-religion nutcases.
Apostle,
You probably agree with me when I say that the memorial is one way to pay respects to the many brave men and women who fought for our country.
Straight forward question for you. Are all the men this cross was erected for Christian? ( Yes / No )
Probably not. I don’t actually know, but I’m willing to bet that there was at least one person who was not of Christian faith. Even if it is just one person. Erecting a cross is of ultimate disrespect to non-Christians. I started to read your comment and thought maybe you were going somewhere. I thought maybe there was some respect in you, but I was wrong when I read what you wrote:
“If the Cross offends, too bad.”
You are only thinking of yourself when you fight for this cross. I believe that main reason this cross is being taken down is because it is offensive to the non Christians it represents. I label myself as a freethinker. Freethinker really is a great description. I’m not restricted in my thinking like it seems you are.
From a personal perspective I’d like the cross removed either way. I’ll make a deal with you. If someone can show me that everyone who that cross represents was a Christian. I will sign the petition, and will fight for the cross to stay erected. However, if there is at least one person who the cross represents that is not Christian, I would expect you to withdraw any support you hold for this cross.
As I write this, it seems fair, what does everyone else thing, and why?
Leandro
Proud Freethinker,
http://www.freethoughtnews.com
“I believe that main reason this cross is being taken down is because it is offensive to the non Christians it represents.”
Too bad. There is no right to not be offended. When the families of the deceased complain, I might care about your sensibilities. By the way, thanks for the compliment by implying I’m not a free thinker. That is a term liberals apply to themselves which really means “zero accountability.
Apostle,
You never told me what you thought of my deal. Why not?
The difference in values between you and I have finally surfaced very clearly. As a “freethinker” I value truth and honesty without provocation. I want what is right, what is legal, what is respectable, always.
You on the other hand say you “MIGHT care, if and when the families of the deceased complain”. Even in your statement you are unsure of your desire for truth by your use the word MIGHT. From your attitude it is clear you don’t care about the truth or the respect this memorial serves. All you care about is the cross. Your faith has blinded you, as it does most of its followers.
All this doesn’t say much about you, or anyone like you. This is why our founding fathers created a secular constitution. To protect the everyone else from people like you.
You speak about “Zero Accountability”. I disagree. People of faith use their faith as accountability for horrendous things. Just look at our history. From the Dark Ages to the Inquisition, people of faith have had zero accountability because they were able to use faith as an excuse.
If you feel that anything I’m saying has even the remote possibility of being closer to the truth than you through, I suggest you take a good look at what you’re fighting for. Ask yourself, “Am I doing this for the brave men and women, or am I doing this for me, and the cross that I blindly follow.”
Leandro
Freethinker
“You never told me what you thought of my deal. Why not?”
Because I have a better one: Prove to me, (as Kerwyn rightly pointed out)that everyone in America worships the goddess erected as our Statue of Liberty. If so, I won’t protest to have it removed.
“Even in your statement you are unsure of your desire for truth by your use the word MIGHT.”
What “truth” is that? The only truth involved here is that this Cross is perfectly legal. If you are a free thinker, then try to unbrainwash yourself from liberal propaganda and recognize that God and Christianity have played a very big role in this nation from day one. There is nothing illegal about it, otherwise the Framers of our “secular” Constitution would have put a stop to these things you guys protest along time ago, such as: The swearing on the Bible ceremony, “God” printed on all of our money, the Ten Commandments…
LOL
If it isn’t illegal, why is one atheist able to have the cross removed over thousands of people’s objection?
The Statue of Liberty? Goddess. Send me a link. Not sure what you mean. I looked it up, didn’t find anything that made the Statue of any religious affiliation.
Leandro
“If it isn’t illegal, why is one atheist able to have the cross removed over thousands of people’s objection?”
Who wants to be sued?
“The Statue of Liberty? Goddess. Send me a link.”
Sure.
Apostle,
I believe in justice. A lawsuit is only as good as the laws it is based on. If the cross was not illegal, the lawsuit would not have been won.
Thank you for that link. I took a quick look through and from what I could tell, the Statue of Liberty that we know of was never a god such as Zeus, Poseidon, and the many other gods you are atheist to.
She is considered a goddess by few but was not build to represent a goddess. When the French gave her to us, she was not considered a goddess or meant to represent any goddess that was known at the time. From this understanding, she is not a goddess but to the few that choose to consider her a goddess.
I took a quick read on her, The Statue of Liberty on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_liberty. That page speaks of replicas such as the Goddess of Democracy, on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy. Statues only named goddess of Liberty.
It seems that there is no goddess other than the statue itself. I don’t see your point when it comes to the Statue of Liberty. This brings us back to where we were.
Put simply, a Christian symbol (the cross) exists to represent many people some of whom are not Christian. This display is on public property which conflicts with the first constitutional amendment. It is illegal and should be taken down in respect of those non-Christian men it represents and our constitution.
With all that said, you probably still don’t think it should be taken down which brings me to an even greater point.
You spoke of zero accountability which it seems you are guilty of. I am a freethinker, therefore I think for myself without restriction. I made my best effort to entertain your arguments, none of which stood much criticism. If you had “reasonable” reasons to keep the cross up, you should have been able to compel me to support your case, but you were unable.
I on the other hand I have given you multiple reasons why the cross should come down. Freethinkers pride themselves on reason, something it seems you have little of. You do things blindly and without reason and therefore without accountability. If you were reasonable you’d start to see things differently.
If you had to give me ONE good reason why the cross should stay, what would it be? Of course a reason that doesn’t break any laws, or disrespect any of the brave who it represents.
This is but one case this website supports. I wonder how many others there are? What are you an apostle of? It isn’t truth or respect because you are not honoring either.
Leandro Lima
24, Fort Lauderdale
“If the cross was not illegal, the lawsuit would not have been won.”
Sure, because there is no one who has ever won a lawsuit that shouldn’t of. Right. Well, by your logic, the 6th Circuit Court shooting down ACLU efforts to have the Ten Commandments removed means that the Ten Commandments display is legal then right? How to you reconcile this with having a Cross removed?
“Put simply, a Christian symbol (the cross) exists to represent many people some of whom are not Christian.”
Because the Cross is an international sign of mourning, used in some cases even in parts of the orient where it is illegal to be Christian.
“This display is on public property which conflicts with the first constitutional amendment.”
If it did the Framers of the Constitution would have prevented such actions. Maybe you think you have a better handle on interpreting the Consitution than those who wrote it. That appears to be the case, because after writing the establishment clause, or Framers went on to publicly endorse Christianity precisely in this fashion. I do honor respect and the truth, you are mereley rewriting history.
You are absolutely right about a lawsuit won doesn’t make it legal.
Symbol of mourning doesn’t prevent it from being an international symbol of Christianity. I don’t see how I am not trying to rewrite history. The first amendment is so clear. Not even sure how we can disagree on it.
Let me make sure I understand, the only reason you’ve given me so far is that the cross is the international symbol of mourning, so that makes it ok.
I ask, maybe rhetorically, is the cross more an int’l symbol of mourning or more an int’l symbol of Christianity? Obviously it is both, but is it both equally, or is it one more than the other. How could we discover the answer to such a question?
How could you discover the answer? Put it in context. It is a war memorial.
“I don’t see how I am not trying to rewrite history. The first amendment is so clear. Not even sure how we can disagree on it.”
The first amendment is clear, you’re right. As is the actions of the people who wrote it, actions that clearly endorsed Christianity. THAT is how we disagree. The Framers obviously did not mean that goverment cannot endorse Christianity, otherwise the Framers wouldn’t have blatantly done so. This is an argument I keep posting that you continually ignore. Thomas Jefferson used government funds to convert Indians to Christianity. Every president in our nation’s history has sworn on the Bible publicly. The Decleration of Independance clearly endorse’s God. “In God We Trust” printed on our money. And so on and so on. Before you say it, I’ll refute the strawman that I know is imminent: Does that mean that our Framers were all Christian, or that these actions were based on Christian motives? Or just a means to an end? Answer: Irrelevant to your argument. No matter the motive, these are CLEAR endorsements of Christianity by the Framers of the amendment you keep misinterpreting. If you need links to some of what I’ve listed, just ask.
LeandroMan, I am surprised at your freethinking closemindedness.
“Symbol of mourning doesn’t prevent it from being an international symbol of Christianity.”
I would say that the most ‘popular’ group to use the cross is the Christians. It being the international symbol of Christianity does not stop it from being anything else either. It is not only used as a symbol of mourning, but of various power balances, elemental balances, and the relation of MANY divinities to the earth (Odin and some of the Hindu Devas to name a few). Most of the many crosses throughout history have not been Christian crosses. They just get associated with Christianity now because the Christian nations have been the dominant powers of recent history.
I would argue that instead of having to prove that all the people it was dedicated to were Christian for it to be okay one should instead have to prove that everyone involved in building the memorial intended it to be a cross in the Christian sense. Athiests with sticks up their rears can sod off if they can’t prove that because there are plenty of secular meanings behind a cross as well.