Running Low on Political Capital, Obama in a Rush to Pass Socialist Medicine
Posted on July 19, 2009
Here is the problem with hope and change. If you throw around empty phrases like this, and build people’s hopes up with high expectations and utopian ideals – things can only go in one direction…anti-climax. This is especially true if the utiopian ideals are built on a platform of flawed logic. Socialism sounds good to people’s hearts, but human nature will never allow it to succeed. Post Toasties adds,
“It’s a great deal more than human nature that doesn’t allow socialism to succeed, such as economics, geopolitics, ethnic factors, regional differences and demographics.” Every proposal of “change” Obama is proposing has been built from a foundation of socialist ideas. Common sense tells us that you can’t spend yourself out of debt, but that’s what Obama proposed and rushed through Congress to make happen. It’s naturally failing. So will his other ideals. He built up hopes and people are finding the anti-climax deflating and hopefully awakening. The poll numbers for Obama’s approval ratings are dropping like a rock, and his political capital is running on empty. But hey, if you build everyone up on empty phrases, what can you expect but empty results? Sadly, Obama still believes in his own illusions. Even his own party is losing hope.
He says it can’t wait! He promises not to sign any healthcare bill that will add to the national deficit, but the small print lets you know he actually means if it adds to the deficit over the next decade. I guess the House should scratch their $239 billion bill. Listen to him below, but keep in mind he is lying. When he tells you that you can keep your own healthcare insurance, know he is lying. The fine print says if you have no insurance you have to go with the government plan. If your insurance company drops you, you can’t shop around and choose your doctor…you have to go with the government plan. The “period, end of story” crap is a bald faced lie. You can sum up Obama’s plan when he says he doesn’t believe insurance companies should be allowed to do as they please. Last I checked we were a capitalist nation, and if an insurance company did anything outside the realm of its competitors they wouldn’t last. Now, they will have to compete against a system backed by the treasury. It won’t take long before rationing comes into play, and the concept of the “duty to die”. When a 25 year old has the same ailment that costs a fortune that a 72 year old has, the 25 year old will gain priority and the 72 year old will have a “duty to die”. After that, forced euthanasia and abortion of the “undesirables” is just around the corner. Yes, there is a slippery slope here and it is very important. Our Republican representatives need to make a stand as much as possible against this Pandora’s box being opened. Democrats are no longer trying to sneak socialism into America, they are doing it right out in the open. Why are we doomed to repeat history in all its mistakes?
Seniors, take a look at the House version.
One troubling provision of the House bill compels seniors to submit to a counseling session every five years (and more often if they become sick or go into a nursing home) about alternatives for end-of-life care (House bill, p. 425-430). The sessions cover highly sensitive matters such as whether to receive antibiotics and “the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration.”
This mandate invites abuse, and seniors could easily be pushed to refuse care. Do we really want government involved in such deeply personal issues?
Here is a little more you should take note of:
Shockingly, only a portion of the money accumulated from slashing senior benefits and raising taxes goes to pay for covering the uninsured. The Senate bill allocates huge sums to “community transformation grants,” home visits for expectant families, services for migrant workers — and the creation of dozens of new government councils, programs and advisory boards slipped into the last 500 pages.
Obama’s political capital may run out sooner than expected:
Some centrist House Democrats have reached out to Republicans to explore breaking with their party leadership on healthcare and crafting a reform bill with the rival GOP, one congressman claimed Saturday.
Rep. Charles Boustany (R-La.) asserted that an “interesting development” is taking place underway that, if true, could effectively remove Democratic leadership from the driver’s seat on healthcare reform legislation in the House.
“There’s an interesting development occurring behind the scenes, wherein moderate Democrats — so-called “Blue Dog” Democrats — and business-friendly new Democrats are actually starting to have conversations with us to build a coalition from the center outward, to actually really come up with substantive and well-founded healthcare reform,” Boustany said during an appearance on Fox News. “And that’s the only way to do this.”
Here is Reagan’s advice to Obama:
Uh oh! Democrats are in panic mode as Americans protest! Is it possible Obama is not god?
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68 Responses to “Running Low on Political Capital, Obama in a Rush to Pass Socialist Medicine”
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It is clear that the majority doesn’t
rule, it’s the special interests because, they have the loudest voice. I have compiled
a list of private donors and companies that
make donations to the American Criminal
Liberties Union and I boycott them. Billionare George Soros contributes millions
of dollars to these leftists and I boycott
anyone who does business with this jerk.
first off everyone thats complaining about health care and the economy it’s our own greed that got this country into this mess and the only way to fix it is to give back to the country in the form of wage concessions and benifit cuts to save jobs and lower costs so consumer can afford to buy products again complain all you want blame it on the government but until we take responsibilty for our own greedy actions that caused this it will only get worse instead of better all our greed is doing is driving jobs to foriegn countries for lower labor costs
Everybody need some type of Insurance and should be able the get the best service as anybody else.
Yeah good old “Ronnie”, Gave amnesty to millions of illegal lawbreakers under the pretense of securing our borders, committed numerous crimes under the pretense of “National Security” it’s getting to sound like a broken record… At least he’s dead and I hope he rots in hell….
Obaam wants to rush everything through before he is officially outed as an imposter from Kenyan backed by unknown foreign elements who would like nothing better to bring us down. The military and even some liberal journalists are now looking at the tons of lawsuits questioning his eligibilty. But Obama can spend OUR money to make sure that he never has to disclose his records- all of this from the TRANSPARENCY President- what a %%#^# joke !!! He will bankrupt us . Say no to his policies- they will be disastrous for America. He and Biden are clueless.
socialism will be gone by the next election im sure,,as will a [edited]pot full of democrats…this(grab at socialism) isnt working no matter how you slice it…people are starting to come out from under the obama rock,,
harvey wallbanger is a racist and does nothing to help the cause of ridding us of socialized medicine. This is nothing to do with what color Obama is, and the sooner you stop attacking the man (bad logic) and attack the program, the better we will all be.
and junglejim has been hanging upside down too much when he claims Obama is from Kenya. Nonsense.
Focus on facts not irrelevant gossip and obvious racism.
Without good paying jobs, Americans will not be able to purchase anything above basic needs. “wage concessions and benifit cuts to save jobs and lower costs so consumer can afford to buy products again” is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard. Taxes need to be put back the way they were before Ronnie fired the air traffic controllers and gave amnesty to millions of illegal lawbreakers under the pretense of securing our borders. We can, and should, send all illegal aliens back home and close any business that hires them in the future. Incarcerate repeat offenders.
As far as Obama running low on capital, that is just pure BS. The majority of the people are supporting the health insurance reforms he is advocating. All the republicans and the blue dogs will pay for dragging their feet come the next elections. The only problem with that is they will still continue to have full pay and full health coverage even after loosing their jobs. Real sweet deal they have. The rest of us don’t ever get full health care when we pay our premiums.
Unless Obama legalizes the 12 million illegal aliens in this country, come next election there will be a change, not much of one, but enough to remove the super majorities Dems have right now.
Inflation, high unemployment, stagnation. The EXACT same things Carter exasperated by punishing the successful.
And they will be the EXACT same things that will lead to Republican wins in the next election. Obama knows he has to hurry, in a couple of years he will be politically neutered and he’ll have a miserable final two years in office.
At this rate, he’s going to end up like Carter, a laughing stock.
The great conservative lie, choice is everything, it is the American way. Your biggest points were that people who don’t have insurance or lose it won’t get the choice to pick one of our many private providers because they will be forced to take the government option. Wow then 50 million Americans can actually choose some insurance. The reason they don’t have insurance is that the available providers are too expensive or have chosen not to cover them because it is not as profitable as covering wealthier healthy people.To harveywallbanger and junglejim, you have to be able to think to have a mind of your own. Yours were taken by aliens or republicans and replaced with a can of spam.
?junglejim123 on July 19th, 2009 4:07 pm
Obaam wants to rush everything through before he is officially outed as an imposter from Kenyan backed by unknown foreign elements who would like nothing better to bring us down. The military and even some liberal journalists are now looking at the tons of lawsuits questioning his eligibilty. But Obama can spend OUR money to make sure that he never has to disclose his records- all of this from the TRANSPARENCY President- what a %%#^# joke !!! He will bankrupt us . Say no to his policies- they will be disastrous for America. He and Biden are clueless.
Let me be the first to commend you on some of the best “psychobable” and “pointless” commentary that I have been exposed to recently.. Anyone who is exposed to it is now “less intelligent ie: Dumber” for having to read it so please just take your Ritalin and go away…
It’s not that we are Socialist yet.
The fear is that by ignoring the Constitution when people wish, and continuing to give power to Federal Government we will wake up Socialist one day.
NEVER forget that Hitler was elected. I seriously doubt everyone that voted for him thought he was going to cause a world war, turn himself into dictator for life, ban firearm ownership, and after that murder 6 million people.
Please stop living in the “now”, and think about the possible destination our road of good intentions is stretching towards.
Everyone is ignoring the 300 pound gorilla in the room.
Where does the Constitution state we have a right to health care?
What got us in trouble? Greediness at first, now our problem is too much liberalism. What the gov’t needs to do is fix the problem of immigration; anyone who says we need to send illegal aliens back:Get real! The gov’t needs to start a program that allows immigrants to work for their citizenship (probationary citizenship for three or five years that ensures they stay out of trouble, if not their prob. citizenship is revoked and they cannot become citizen’s). We cannot stop illegals from coming in, but we can create a program that will be good for both America and immigrants.
I listen to all these stories, but what about those of us who worked and saved all our lives for retirement. Now everything is almost gone, I was forced to sell stock that when I retired was $50.00 a share, in 1997 now that I am over 70 -1/2 and had to sell and guess what I received $8.47 a share, is that fair? Why should I be forced to sell when the market is so low, if at this point I can live without it. I am in good health and may need it later to live on. But instead am losing my retirement funds because of my age and having to start drawing from my retirement funds. I always lived within my income in order to save. Most of the families today buy everything they want and don’t bother to save for the future.
I do not mean to state the obvious but the commons are the infrastructure and foundation for all corporations to flourish. If Bill Gates had been born in Kenya, would he be the Chairman of Microsoft today. Well….The roads, education , safety, clean air and water, peace, communications,abundant supplies, all this supported and nurtured his Ideas and consequently the fertile environment for these ideas to become a reality. Health care for all will allow pregnant mothers treatment before an underweight and sickly baby taxes our resources. It will allow the American work force to become more competitive…..and agreed, it will create a safety net for the downtrodden, and agreed this trade off will possibly prevent 5% of Americans the opportunity to become extremely wealthy……but we need this to support the quality of life for Americans. We do not lack in the amount of desperate people, disproportionately, sharing our roads, communities and workplace, All pressure cookers require a plenum to release steam or they explode.
?long_Rifle on July 19th, 2009 4:45 pm
Everyone is ignoring the 300 pound gorilla in the room.
Where does the Constitution state we have a right to health care?
Excellent point…. and where does it state that we are also “Pro Life”????
Boy did you just feed us a line! Who is th liar now. Socialized medicine would mean the government will buy and own all the hospitals and employ all the doctors. That is not in the proposal. Why do you persist in spreading the conservative lie? If you don’t have coverage you are not likely to get private insurance or it will be much more expensive. Your care is rationed now by the insurance companies who tell you what can and cannot be covered and there is claims person standing between you and the doctor to say what he/she can do for you. So the conservative talking points are the usual fear tactics without any facts. Try getting it right. Your readers usually don’t take the time to educate themselves about issues preferring to listen to drivel like yours.
There are no people in the United States that cannot get health care if they want it or need it.
Period end of story.
This is nothing but an attempt of the liberals to create a program as ugly and expensive as Socail Security that will be impossible to cut or control.
And the very old people that are in support because they think Obama will provide for them will be the very ones told to die because they are too expensive to care for.
Obama is anti American.
Erroneous assumption #1 – 50 million uninsured Americans actually WANT medical insurance. I DON’T . My family & I are healthy . We have healthy lifestyles. I am very knowledgeable about herbs & natural remedies. I had several children at home in a birthing tub with a mid-wife. I have car insurance for accidents , I have home insurance for accidents. I’d rather spend my resources on healthy food, vitamins & exercise than INSURANCE !!! I sure as heck don’t want to be FORCED to pay for ANY insurance , much less a government run one!!!
So, many of you believe it’s better to have 50,000,000 people without health insurance in the US (including myself)? I have health issues, but cannot get care any where. Is that better, to have folks like myself without care?
?cale on July 19th, 2009 5:38 pm
There are no people in the United States that cannot get health care if they want it or need it.
Period end of story.
This is nothing but an attempt of the liberals to create a program as ugly and expensive as Socail Security that will be impossible to cut or control.
And the very old people that are in support because they think Obama will provide for them will be the very ones told to die because they are too expensive to care for.
Obama is anti American.
The free market system our economy is based upon (correct me if I’m wrong) is Competition based markets… Please explain to me where the competition is regarding the Health Care Industry and how it is working for the average American????
Everyone should write their representatives in Washington. It is not Obama. It is the whole machinery on Capital Hill. Special Interests, Personal Agendas, Lack of Focus. Its time for our representatives to get some courage and take some action even if it is not perfect. Isn’t that why we elect politicians? My guess Health Reform may pass but it will be a low-quality complex bill that will accomplish next to nothing except maybe more profits for the companies that proport to ‘want to lower costs’ but at the same time ‘work to maximize profits’ by lowering the quality of health care. In addition to more access to basic medical care many americans want to raise the quality (e.g. an MRI when we – and the doctor – says we need it instead of when the insurance company say it is time). It seems to me that there is manipulation of demand and supply aimed at providing revenue enhancement to insurance companies and health care providers at the expense of the very persons they are supposed to be servicing. Very messed up. If congress does not fix this who will?
Someone please explain to me how anyone can think that socialism is the way to go! I just don’t get your logic…why would you intentionally give up your freedoms so daddy government can tell you what to do?? It truely baffles me.
All of you that want government health care, is it really as simple as wanting something for free? Are you REALLY ready to have a “council” tell you and yours what treatment you are financially worth?? Are you REALLY okay with them telling your grandmother, grandfather, mother or father, that they’re too old to be worth the investment? Here is a pain pill, now go home and die quietly?
I just don’t understand. You accuse capitalists of being greedy….it’s not greed, it’s survival. Wake up!
There are many Americans who cannot get medical care–unless (and this is a huge unless) they go into the ER for conditions that really are not emergencies. If you have had to wait hours in an ER, it is ikely because many of the patients there use the ER for primary care purposes (you can’t really blame them).
There are some free clinics, but not nearly enough for all of the medically indigent.
What about the majority of us, myself included, who are fortunate enough to have health insurance? Are you really happy with your medical insurance? Does it cover everything you wish it did? Is it really affordable? What about dental and mental health coverage? Do you have them? Are they satisfactory?
Have you ever been denied coverage for a pre-existing condition?
Why do we in the U.S. have poor health outcomes compared to other nations (e.g., life expectancy, infant mortality rates, and the like)?
If you really understand these issues and still reject a single-payer system, good for you. If, on the other hand, you really don’t know what you are talking about then spend some time researching the issues. A great place to start is the website I list above–Physicians for a National Healthcare System.
Do your homework and stop repeating half-truths, blatant distortions, and propaganda. Think for yourselves, people!
One more point: Stop with the ad hominem attacks and start making arguments that have some genuine reason and logic.
Ad hominem attacks are worthless in a discussion. They don’t advance the discussion in any meaningful way, they appeal to emotion not reason, and they reflect poorly on those who make them.
Argue with all your might, but do so with real evidence, sound reasoning, and a desire to make sense.
Not sure if you’re talking to me or not, but it’s not ad hominem attacks. That information came right out of Obama’s mouth.
Sure, our system is not perfect, but if it is so bad, then why do people come from all parts of the world to take advantage of it??
True headline from Canada’s newpaper when healthcare reform was reported for U.S. “How many Canadians will die when America goes to socialized medicine”. Hmmm…tell me again what’s so great about government healthcare!
Obama believes in “end of life care”. His words. His words that perhaps a pain pill would be better than treatment for the elderly.
I suggest YOU do your homework.
If the government were really concerned with getting Americans healthcare, they would simply buy insurance for those that don’t have it. Simple solution. Why overhaul and change our entire system….look deeper, my friend. If there were true merits to this system, they wouldn’t be trying to ram it thru in weeks, it would go the full course.
Use your head, not your emotions.
Lori:
You seem genuiunely interested in understanding why some argue for major healthcare reform. I applaud your curiosity.
Here are a few answers to your queries:
1. National healthcare is Not socialism. It’s not even socialized healthcare or socialized medicine. Socialized healthcare means healthcare workers (doctors, nurses, techs, etc.) work for the gov’t. Some countries (e.g., England) have this system. It has both strengths and weaknesses.
2. National healthcare, on the other hand, means that doctors, nurses, hospitals, etc. are NOT gov’t employees. Instead, they work in their own private practices, hospitals, perhaps for nono-profit groups (like a Catholic hospital).
3. National healthcare, also called a single-payer system, means that payments to doctors, hospital, etc. come from one source–the gov’t. This is quite different from socialized medicine. It means YOU have the choice of which doctor you see, which hospital you go to, etc.
4. Our current system is really only good for two basic groups: (1) those who make money by way of private health insurance (employees and investors), and (2) those who are so wealthy that they can afford the very best in medical treatment. For the rest of us, the current system is not a good value.
5. For those who will invariably attack me, I am NOT a liberal, not a socialist, not misinformed, and not here to grind any ideological ax. Instead, I am simply a hard-working, middle class American who desparately wants genuine healthcare reform.
6. Finally, the great irony here is that what the Obama admin is proposing is not really a sound initiative. It will cost too much, take too long, and leave millions uncovered. Obama, like most politicians, is timid.
Best,
Tim
Lori,
My comments about ad hominem attacks were NOT directed at you. Rather at those doing the name calling.
I am doing my homework, but I confess I have plenty to learn. I stand ready to be corrected whenever I’m mistaken.
Thanks,
Tim
Why is it my responsibility to help other people get health care? If the liberals want to love and help the downtrodden and uninsured, then they can pay for it out of their own pockets. Forced charity is not charity. The constitution gives us the protection so that we might have the opportunity to live, enjoy our liberties, and pursue our happiness. It does not say you must support those who are too lazy, too ignorant, or undeserving. If you want a better life, go get it. But to sit back and whine about how hard life is and expect the rest of us to pull you through life is selfish and evil. If you were born with medical problems, I am sorry, but it is not my problem. If you want sympathy and free charity see your church, last I checked that was their job. The socialist and liberal handouts must end. They have created a social class of clingers, people more than happy to suckle the government teat rather than expend the energy required to move themselves forward. The one responsible for you and your own families welfare is you. Not the government, not your neighbors, you. These are hard realizations, but the truth is often hard and disliked. If you want a better future, work harder. If the lazy become entitled to the same benefits as the hardworking, then there is no reason to work hard. If I bust my a** 50 hours a week to get ahead, but lose all my overtime and extra effort paying taxes so some welfare case has the same things I have, where is my incentive to keep doing that? Why put in the extra effort to give it to someone who didn’t earn it? There are many things that need to be fixed in this country but another tax burden on the working people is not one of them. Tax imported goods to make them competitive with goods manufactured here. Crack down on unions that drive industries into bankruptcy. Kill Social Security and encourage personal saving for retirement with tax breaks. Sell Govt. retirement bonds to encourage people to contribute to the country but save for their own future. Bigger government is never the answer.
Brought to you by your friendly neighborhood Libertarian.
Tim, thank you for your thoughtful answer.
I understand what you are saying, regarding the medical personnel, but I’m still a little confused about the differences in care. If the government is writing the check, they will absolutely dictate the care. Obama already addressed that issue. He will have a “Council” which will decide the care and treatment needed.
Now, we already have a version of this care in this country. We don’t need to look to other counties for an example. A perfect example of how government healthcare works is our V.A. system.
Both my father and my husband are veterans and have had to use the VA for care. My father, who is disabled and can barely walk, was made to wait one year for a wheel chair. They made him apply 3 times…and then finally approved his request. In the meantime, he was made to walk with the aid of 2 canes and a metal brace on his leg. Pretty much immobile.
My suggestion would be, when the Federal Government can prove that they can run a system like the VA, Medicare/Medical/Medicaid, or Social Security, without fraud, waste or simply bankrupting it, then there might be room for a discussion. Otherwise, just same old government waste, fraud, and lies.
I suppose I’m beating a dead horse here (a character flaw of mine), but let me add a couple of points:
The reform I speake or write of is NOT what Obama is proposing. It is much more substantial.
The headlines that many like to use as evidence that our system is superior to, say, the Canadian system are not compelling evidence. They are anecdotal.
From all I have gathered, the Canadian model has greater patient satisfaction than does our system. There is no doubt, either, that by objective measures (like life expectancy, infant mortality, and the like)our system does not compare favorably to the Canadian model.
Is the Canadian model perfect? Of course not, but it is by most objective measure better than ours.
So many people expressing what looks like hate for others on this blog. Health care is something everyone needs at one time or another regardless of your political leanings. If you don’t have a prepaid healthcare plan when you get sick the rest of us pay as you can’t pay or at least pay all of the bill. In europe the people have various forms of health insurance. They all pay into and all use a government run plan with supplemental private plans for the rich. They think the American system is crazy, just ask any tourist from there. The health costs here are out of control because there is no competition in the production of health care drugs and services due to antitrust laws and patent law. Try shopping for a MRI or doctor or nurse or a hospital after an automobile accident, no one can do that, you take what they charge. Therefore, the bloggers who fear socialism in healthcare don’t seem to realize that only if the the consumer, us, can shop for a good does capitalism work. It works for WalMart purchases, maybe not for gas, and definetly not for care when you are sick. The advantage of the europeon and canadian single payer form is that costs are held down at the supplier level so that healthcare costs half or less than in the USA. Numerous studies show it gives a better than USA outcome ie: less people sick and less time sick, than the system here. Complaints of long wait times for emergency care are not true. *For elective surgery if you don’t like the wait in the hospital near home other hospitals farther away are generally available. I think most of the bad press feared by the bloggers is from some years past in Canada. At that time the local providences, which fund the health services, didn’t spent the neccessary funds and it took several election cycles to teach the politians to raise taxes and spend the money. How is that any different from health plans here raising fees? At least in Canada the money went for services not the health plan chairmans salary and retirement. Is the house plan the best? I think not because it doesn’t address the issue of provider monopoly for health services and goods. Less moaning and more thought might make for a much better health system as the present system is broke and broken.
——-
*Emphasis by mod.
Bundle all members of both houses into a plane. Land them in FRANCE for a three month crash program in health care. No bluff, no fluff, no hype!
Tim,
I’ll help you beat that same dead horse.
I have to passionately disagree with you. Canadians are not satisfied with their healthcare, or their taxes to pay for it, I might add. I speak from experience. Born on the Canadian border, they flood down here for medical care, because the wait is so long up there. They also come here to shop, sit in diners and change the price tags, so they don’t have to pay the extortion rate their government call “duty”.
You may believe that headlines are “anecdotal”, but I can’t think of any better evidence of what is reality and not government rhetoric.
Peace!
Another thought….if this is such a good idea, why are Congress, the President and the Unions exempt from this great idea?
Maybe because they know it sucks??
If you want to see how popular this healthcare reform is, make it a voluntary $25 a week tax on your paycheck. Then we’ll see if people really want to pay for this.
Lori,
I am a veteran myself, so is my wife, my dad, one of my brothers, and most of my uncles. So, VA issues are near and dear to my heart.
What appears below comes directly from the PNHP website:
“Walter Reed Army Medical Center has been in the news lately for poor care and treatment of returning soldiers from Iraq. Won’t national health insurance have similar problems?
As we consider what we can learn from the Walter Reed Army Medical Center debacle with regard to government-run efforts, some clarifications should be made:
1. Walter Reed Army Medical Center is an Army hospital and is run by the Department of Defense. The VA hospitals are run by the Veterans Administration (Veterans Health Administration), a separate organization. The news media has clouded this fact and has led the public to presume that all government-run health efforts fail. The VA health system continues to receive the best quality scores of any segment of the U.S. health system, with the most satisfied patients. It beats the best HMOs in quality ratings, has a model information system, and focuses on primary care. It has led in addressing medical errors and in its application of AHRQ quality guidelines to both inpatients and outpatients. In 2004 it won the Baldridge Prize for quality and patient-safety improvements.
2. There is a lot we can learn from the Walter Reed disgrace. Its operation was outsourced to a Halliburton-connected company in 2002, over the objections of some Army medical personnel and leadership, with a subsequent drastic reduction in staff and loss of government employees with institutional experience. There was also some hanky-panky with the contracting process; when the government employees’ bid for the operations contract came in lower than the Halliburton company’s bid, the bids were “recalculated” to make the private company the lowest bidder.”
(This section was contributed by Dr. Anne Carroll.)
Lori
I used to work in the California health system dealing with fraud in MediCal. The fraud and waste I saw was caused by the way we pay the providers and doctors. They made more money for more serices so naturally they prescribed more services whether they were needed or not. For example, I saw a lot of adult diapers in birdcages and people driving power wheelchairs back and forth to the market as their personal taxpayer provided car while your relatives went without services. The single payer systems that don’t link doctor or provider pay to serices take the incentive for fraud out of the system. Your relatives bad experiences with the VA prove that forceing people to use a single provider is not a good idea whether that is a health plan like Kaiser, blue shield or the VA. Single payer means that you or your relatives could go to any provider to get care. If the politicians screw up and don’t fund the care than thats what elections are for. If we adopt a single payer plan based on states we would have 50 competing plans to compare. In europe and in canada most plans are provided the necessary funds without any great fights as it is an accepted part of govenmental services which are paid for by peoples taxes.
Regarding the Canadian model, my reading of the situation suggests that since the 1990s there has been tremendous improvement in reducing wait times.
Here’s a website re: Canadian medical issues worth checking out:
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=3878
Best
Tim,
Great article…typical government workings. Crooked and deceitful. (again, just solidifies why I wouldn’t want government to have any input into my little world. They are not capable of making ice cubes without fouling it up.)
But it doesn’t address the VA facility in San Diego….any ideas why their care sucks so badly?
I have to say this online discussion is one of the most civil and helpful I’ve read in a long time.
So often, threaded discussion quickly devolve into mean-spirited wastes of time.
-Tim
Lori,
I don’t know why some VA systems are well run and others are not.
Perhaps others can chime in.
I have not read any comments on the section of the house bill that makes it immpossible for insurance companies to sign up any new people. Without being able to spread risk, they will go out of business very quickly. So how do people keep their benefits, as O assures?
Ezeckial Rahm, our health czar, wrote a book endorsing eugenics. In this he advocates spending resources on young healthy people and not on the old or handicapped. How exactly is this compassionate? Are we now to abandon those who need the most help?
Tim, I agree (about the civility of this thread) and I want to thank you. I’ve enjoyed the discussion.
-Lori
Much of the discussion has been about the Canadian model. Here’s an article from Business Week (not a liberal outlet) discussing the French system.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_28/b4042070.htm
Regarding Dagny’s post, I’m not sure to what to say–though that never stops me (tongue only partially in cheek).
Did you mean eugenics or euthanasia?
FWIW, I’m opposed to both. The first (forced sterilization) is obviously immoral, while the second is less clear cut, more complicated.
I personally believe that paliative care, for example what hospices provide, usually makes “mercy killing” or euthanasia unnecessary.
As I understand, however, there is hidden euthanasia in the U.S. everyday. Some healthcare observers and bio-ethicists write about the double effect (I think I have this right), whereby strong meds (like morphine) are given in high enough doses that the pain is killed and so too might the patient.
Perhaps some of the doctors and nurses here might offer some insight.
I should add that a different healthcare model, like a single payer system, does not mean we will have institutionalized euthanasia.
I like to think that our culture is truly compassionate and that we will do all we can to provide care to the elderly. Look at Medicare.
Has anyone looked into the HMO’s and big Pharma as being the cause of high medical care ? Why not put caps on them or are they too powerful ?
Tim, I agree, our culture is truly compassionate. It’s our newly elected government that doesn’t subscribe to that compassion.
That’s the scariest part of all of this to me. The man is so emboldened that he can endorse letting our seniors die, using the phrase “difficult choices”, to save a buck.
What equally scares me, is that the media and his adoring public ignores his statements. Our citizens seem to be as ignorant as they are compassionate. (present company excluded, of course)
He has made his intentions widely known.
And, if we can’t agree on anything else, can’t we all agree that until “THEY” have the money to pay for it, it shouldn’t even be discussed. When they get the trillion dollar deficit under control, THEN let’s discuss spending into oblivion. Until then, it’s like deciding if you want a big screen TV or a Mercedes….except your bank account is overdrawn. Silly discussion in the end, don’t ya agree?
Frodrick, I find your posting most comical. Typical liberal. You have no argument so you resort to name calling and mud slinging.
I might add (and I offer no opinion on this subject one-way-or-another, just an observation) that liberals tout that they are the compassionate ones! (puffed chest sticking out with indignation)
Late term abortion is a liberal thing, isn’t it?? Now say it again with a straight face, please.
OH, and I might add to this posting, Democrats are the ones that backed slavery and population control thru abortion (to control the parts of the population that “we don’t want to grow”. Read up on the history of Planned Parenthood.
You might just change sides……(insert evil laugh here)
Lori, I agree with you about finding the money first. Without dismantling the waste already deeply ingrained in the system congress should never even think about spending money on this. With our deficit already astronomical, any new spending is absolutely illogical.
I guess the thoughtful, civil discussion couldn’t last forever.
LORI: I fully agree that too many of us are poorly informed on these terribly difficult and important issues. I am an educator, so I do my very best to motivate my students to open their minds and hearts. I also agree that we are in a real financial mess. My best understanding, however, is that a single payer system would save us lots of money, both in the short- and long-term.
For those of you who have taken what was an enlighted discussion and turned it into tired old stereotypes and name calling, I sure wish you had something of value to add.
I am extremely grateful that I live in a country where capitalism has created the wealthiest nation on the face of the earth. Without this system we would not have all these millionares to take care of us. I personally will thank every rich person I see for taking care of my family and I.
Tim, I’m going to read up on the differences between the two systems..I wish I knew enough to comment, but I don’t. So thank you for the “food for thought”.
Aaron, hi-five!
Todd, LOL!
I’m going to try and make my comments short and sweet as I discovered along time ago that it’s really easy to read yourself into stupidity!! First off, I’ve really enjoyed reading everyones opinion’s on the subject of “health care” and I’ll share with you that I’m against it and the simple reason why is look at the ‘‘American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009’’ that was suppose to help our country get ahead in our time of financial disaster AND they have admitted to the fact that no one read the 258 pages of bull dung that they passed so what makes you think the health care package they are trying to rush through congress will be any different?? It’s words on paper that gives the government more control over the lives of the American people!!
P.S. I’M AN AMERICAN WHO IS GETTING SICK OF PRESSING ONE FOR “ENGLISH!!!” So why do I want my tax dollars going to fund the NEW health care program they are dreaming up…….look at how much fun they had spending our tax dollars after passing the ‘‘American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009’’…I think they’ve had more then enough fun with my money and I haven’t seen any of the benefits!!! So like I said, “What makes you think they are suddenly looking out for our best interest??” This is another scan to help the “powers that be” (that we don’t see or hear about but trust that they are out there) that really run our government to gain control and to prosper more than they already have from our failing economy.
LouLou,
This should irritate you a little, then.
http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/06/red-alert-la-raza-if-american-people.html
Best Regards,
Lori
I disagree with Universal health care because under it all people living in our country, even illegals will have medical benefits.Honestly,I think it is unfair that foreign people get this benefits. Even today many foreign pregnant women come to our country to deliver their children because they know that our medical policies provide free medical service to them and their children. No wonder we have deficits!!!
Here’s another article worth checking out. This time from the WSJ:
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB114528925682927634-_5EosXnvZvOGsZWwHcizX8WTpck_20070418.html?mod=blogs
Loli: Our huge deficits are a real and growing problem, but illegal aliens are not a really a substantial part of it. Also, a single payer would save all of us lots of money and provide better medical care if designed with the right incentives.
Please do all the reading you can on single payer health care. Try to suspend your preconceived notions for awhile. You might be really surprised by what you learn.
All the best,
Tim
Another point: Don’t get too caught up in the conservative/liberal framework and all of the back and forth on the TV shows (e.g., Fox news vs. MSNBC). Such media outlets are mostly interested in revenues, not careful and thoughtful analysis of pressing and complex social problems like health care reform.
Don’t take my word on any of this, but instead commit yourself to reading all you can, to discussing health care reform with people you respect (especially doctors and nurses and those who have researched it thoroughly), and to suspending judgment until you have really considered the history of health care and health care reform. An excellent source is Paul Starr at Princeton. Here’s his website:
http://www.princeton.edu/~starr/
We really are all in this together, and we are all served best by shutting out the noise and distractions and opening ourselves to thoughtful dialogue.
All the best,
Tim
Actually, Tim, illegals are a major reason for California’s bankrupt status. They have abused the medical resources to the point where hospitals have to close at an alarming rate. They have used the entitlement services up so there is basically nothing left.
The education system is suffering and the American children are held back so “non English speaking” children can try to catch up.
I can’t speak for the rest of the country, but they have devestated California’s economy.
But, I might add, that a penny spent on an illegal alien is a penny not being spent on an American citizen….this should never happen.
Just one woman’s opinion…
HIgh5 Lori
Lori,
Everything I’ve read about CA’s budget crisis points to Howard Jarvis and Prop 13 as the underlying structural issue.
However, I will certainly defer to CA residents like you as I’m sure you know a lot more than I do. All I know for certain is that your political leaders have clearly dropped the ball on this. It boggles my mind to think about the 7th or 8th largets economy in the world issuing IOUs. Simply mind boggling.
Immigration is another one of those complicated issues that usually generates more heat than light when discussed.
Back to the issue of health care reform: I would simply add that immigration and illegal aliens are a red herring. We can easily adopt a single payer system that controls access as other countries have done. We should not scuttle health care reform because of the impact, real or perceived, of immigration.
Thanks,
Tim
See below for a message I sent today to both the RNC and the DNC. Perhaps others here might also write to these groups as well as your elected officials.
I’m under no illusion that my emails will change things, but if enough of us got behind such an effort, maybe just maybe, we could have an influence. I promise you the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries are doing all they can to influence the debate!
Dear Mr. Steele,
My name is Tim Wolfe and I’m a resident of MD.
I am registered as an independent (I think we call it unaffililated in MD) and believe that I am pragmatic and well-informed on most of the big issues facing our nation.
Having said that, I want to know what your objections are to a single payer system of health care financing. For some excellent background on what a single payer system actually means–not what partisans on both sides claim it means
You will note that what they propose is NOT socialized medicine. You will note, too, that their model offers both cost savings AND expanded coverage. As best as I can tell from all of my research into health care reform, this approach is truly the only one that promises to improve health care for all of us.
The only group that loses with this approach is the health insurance industry. On whose side are you and your Republican colleagues?
I know how busy you are, but I presume a staff member can address my questions in a thoughtful and somewhat detailed fashion. Please spare me sound bites and the usual rhetoric.
I’ve also sent this message to Tim Kaine at the DNC.
Warm regards,
Tim Wolfe
Taneytown, MD
[edited]
Good Morning, Tim,
Yes, as a resident of California for 35 years, this issue is near and dear to my heart. I’ve seen the effects of what open borders can do to a country. I currently live in a “sanctuary” city. The rest of the U.S. calls it San Diego, the residents simply call it North T.J.
We are overrun. So, to the rest of the country, it may seem like a “red herring” issue. For those of us who live it, it’s a harsh, ugly reality. On this issue, I could go on and on…..
As far as Prop 13, good ol’ Arnie and his gang of outlaws in Sacramento surely do want you to believe that it’s their undoing. Actually, it’s been the only thing that’s helped keep the citizens of California afloat. Since we are currently one of the highest taxed states, it’s the only way many people have been able to keep their homes.
They have gotten PLENTY of money from the residents and businesses of California, they just have no clue how to manage their budget (kinda like the Feds…). Hence, just a couple of months ago, they held an election begging for more, and the fed-up people not only said no, but HELL NO. Ya’ll need to figure it out, cause we’re tapped and the People’s ATM is closed.
Now, if the most liberal court in the land, known as the 9th circuit would not have overturned Prop 187 (in all of their questionable wisdom), THAT would have saved a ton of misspent money. BUT, for some unknown reason to the people who voted the law in, they figured we can afford to give everyone who crawls across the border free benefits and money. Just show up! It’s all FREE!! They’ll even fill out the forms for you in Spanish! Woohoo!!
Now, this woman’s humble opinion is that as far as I know, the Fed’s only have a few responsibilities. Protecting our sovernty and borders is one of them. They need to get their noses out of day-to-day issues like our healthcare, bogus Global Warming and unlawful Amnesty, and just do their job!
Again, my humble opinion….
Have a great day!
Lori,
Greetings to you in SD!
Please know that I really do send my best regards (and I also offer up my prayers, for what that is worth)to you and your fellow Californians.
One of my colleagues recently moved from San Diego to Maryland. He reports that CA is unlike any place he’s ever lived (and he lived in many places in the U.S. and abroad).
I know our posts have covered lots of territory when the original issue was health care reform, but I think it is good to have a wide reaching exchange of ideas.
Since you brought up climate change, I thought I’d add my 2-cents on that, too. Like you and many others, I was a skeptic about global warming and climate change for quite a long time. However, when I started to teach a class on environmental crime I read everything I could get my hands on about climate change. Here’s what I’ve learned:
1. There is widespread agreement in the scientific community re: global warming. In fact, the earth is getting warmer. There is really NO DEBATE there. The available evidence–which only goes back so far–makes the warming trend perfectly clear.
2. The debate about the cause of this warming trend is only slightly less settled. There are doubters in the scientific community, to be sure, but very few. The best available evidence is strongly suggestive: human activity is responsible for global warming.
3. Understand that it is not easy to get consensus in the scientific community. Science, by its very design, is built on skepticism, objectivity, and falsification. Put simply, scientists are DRIVEN to disprove their colleagues’ research. One makes a name for her/himself by disproving conventional wisdom. If there is one group immune to being hoodwinked, it is the scientific community (scientists are not perfect, but really committed to discovering the truth).
I’m a social scientist by training, so I share a commitment to the scientific method. I withhold judgment until I’ve had a chance to review evidence, consider alternative explanations, and rule out competing explanations and hypotheses. I am no longer a skeptic. Global warming and climate change are real and the threats we face are daunting.
A really excellent book on climate change is this: Brown, Lester R. (2008) Plan B 3.0: Mobilizing to Save Civilization. New York: W.W. Norton & Company.
Here’s a link for more info: http://www.earth-policy.org/Books/PB3/index.htm
Best,
Tim
I’m going to offer one additional thought, then I’ll keep my mouth shut for awhile.
I offer the following advice thinking that some who will read this threaded discussion will decide to dismiss much of what I offer. Here’s my tought/advice:
We should all adopt an intellectual approach I call SCORE (clever, isn’t it?). It refers to habits of the mind or a kind of orientation as follows:
S = skepticism-It is good to be skeptical (not cynical), to withhold judgment until there is persuasive evidence to support a claim. “I hear you, but I’m not so sure. Let me find out for myself.”
C = curiosity-We will all do well to be more curious, to desire to learn as much as possible. Little kids are a great model of this actually. “That’s interesting. I’d like to learn more.”
O = objective-We should commit ourselves to objectivity and a kind of dispassionate approach to the big and complicated questions. Facts are really worthwhile. “Your opinion is interesting, but I’d like some real evidence.”
R = rigor-Too often we are lazy. If we want to learn we must be energetic or rigorous in our efforts. “I commit myself to reading multiple sources, to opening my mind to positions different from my own.”
E = expertise-It follows from the above habits of the mind that we should strive to develop real expertise. No one of us can be expert in all things, but we can all strive to gain as much knowledge as possible. Even the so-called experts are sometimes mistaken. Concerned, committed citizens really can know their stuff and contribute to civic engagement and dialogue. “I’m confident I know what I’m talking about because I’ve down my homework.”
I hope there is something here that is useful.
I promise to lay off at least for awhile!
Best,
Tim