What are we if NOT a Christian Nation?
-By Warner Todd Huston
As President Obama engaged in his “America Stinks” tour of Europe this week he told audiences in Turkey that the U.S. is not a Christian nation. “We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation,” he said on April 6. This echoes his statement in 2007 when Obama told CBN, “whatever we once were, we’re no longer just a Christian nation.”
The subtle difference between those two statements just over a year apart is interesting. Candidate Obama seemed to admit that we might have “once” been a Christian nation but are no longer “just” a Christian nation. But, suddenly as president, he seems to be saying squarely that we “don’t” consider ourselves Christian. Interesting that he seemed to feel obligated to mitigate as a candidate his now openly admitted belief that we just aren’t a Christian nation.
In any case, it is obvious that this is Obama’s way of ingratiating himself with Muslim audiences. But whatever his immediate goal, his sentiment is a popular one with Americans that sport left-wing, anti-religious ideology, people who look to Obama as their leader.
But is he right? Is it true that we aren’t a Christian nation? Did the Founding Fathers choose the Christian ethic as the one upon which they based this country, or not? The answer would appear to be an emphatic yes once the historical record is reviewed. It would also appear that we are straying far afield from that grounding.
As Ronald Reagan reminded us in 1988: “The First Continental Congress made its first act a prayer — the beginning of a great tradition. We have then, a lesson from the founders of our land, those giants of soul and intellect who¹s courageous pledge of life and fortune and sacred honor, and whose ‘firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,’ have ever guided and inspired Americans and all who would fan freedom’s mighty flames and live in ‘freedom’s holy light.’ That lesson is clear: That in the winning of freedom and in the living of life, the first step is prayer.” Reagan was ever so right to guide us toward an understanding that the Founders of this country nearly to a man were steeped in religion — and that of the Protestant, Christian variety, at that. Even the ones against organized religion believed in a God, one that put us here and gave us certain rights as espoused in the Declaration of Independence from Britain.
But let us not use just the Declaration, as the Constitution is supreme law that guides this country. We must strive to remain strict constructionists of that document and hew closely to what the founder’s intended in all their wisdom. It is well considered proper, then, that we look to what the Founders and their contemporaries wrote to construe what they “meant” concerning the principles and ethics to which they hoped we’d remain forever faithful.
Let us begin with a quote from James Madison, the Father of the Constitution. “The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities impressed with it.” That sounds rather ominous, does it not? Of course Madison means that Christian concept of morality that he learned from the Anglican Church which was a required state religion in his home state, Virginia when he was a child.
Another stalwart driving force of the revolutionary days was Samuel Adams who, echoing James Madison’s idea, said, “Liberty will not long survive the total extinction of morals.”
George Washington who can be quoted bestowing Christian religious principles on many of his thoughts and actions he took on the battlefield and in government is very quotable on the subject. Here are a few quotes from the Father of our country.
- “Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles.”
- “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.”
- “And now, Almighty Father, if it is Thy holy will that we shall obtain a place and name among the nations of the earth, grant that we may be enabled to show our gratitude for Thy goodness by our endeavors to fear and obey Thee.”
Pretty straight forward, I believe.
How about Ben Franklin? Old Poor Richard himself was never considered the biggest religious fanatic of his day. In fact he is one of the few Founders that actually considered himself a Deist. But even he once said, “It is the duty of mankind on all suitable occasions to acknowledge their dependence on the Divine being.” Hardly sounds like he was against the morality of Christian ethics, does it?
John Adams, second president and indispensable founding father who was well known to be extremely pious both in religion and opinion said, “Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak; and that it is doing God’s service, when it is violating all His laws.”
He sure did not say Allah’s service. Nor did he couple God and THEY. Adams said HIS laws. An obvious recognition of the Christian God of heaven and earth.
These quotes are all well and good but what did the early American theorists intend to pass on to the youth of America? As an answer to this I point to Benjamin Rush of Pennsylvania. Rush was a respected Doctor and was closely tied to most of the great figures of the early Republic and its national politics. He wrote,”I proceed…to enquire what mode of education we shall adopt so as to secure to the state all the advantages that are to be derived from the proper instruction of youth; and here I beg leave to remark, that the only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”
Well, we could quote dozens upon dozens of such phrases from men like Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Henry Lee, George Clinton and a host of other revolutionary notables but that would tend to over burden the point.
Speaking of Thomas Jefferson, as a riposte to Christians, many half-informed secularists claim that Jefferson was a Deist that hated Christianity. But this is garbled history. Like many of the Founders, Jefferson disliked organized religion but was not in any way against religious sentiment, training and ideals. In fact, the older he got, the more religious he became. But even as our third president he regularly attended Bible class right in the the halls of Congress and never once scolded the classes from meeting on federal property. He was not against Christianity in government at all.*
The point is that the men of the revolution, those very men that created our country, its mores and conventions based their ruminations upon the Christian God and his ethics and principles. They felt this base to be entirely indispensable to the stability of republican government. They warned that to dispense with them would be our undoing and we followed those predications faithfully up until the civil war and half heatedly until the presidency of FDR.
But today, civil Libertarians strive to remake the U.S.A. into a Godless and moraless society based upon an if-it-feels-right mode of thinking. The Democrat Party tries to replace religion with statism and socialism. Even Republicans all too often shy away from the question of the religious ethics of Christianity as if it is a backward ideal that would best be forgotten.
No, Benjamin Rush had it right when he said that without religion “… there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”
Whether critics and secularists like it or not, we are at heart a Christian nation and if we cast off that ethic we will no longer be the United States, we will no longer have in us what made us great.
*For an in depth discussion of Jefferson’s misinterpreted Danbury Letter from which the phrase “wall of separation between church and state” was derived, visit: http://www.publiusforum.com/oldopeds/hustonstoryseparation.html.
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Posted by Warner Todd Huston on April 8, 2009 5:59 am
» Filed Under Anti-Americanism, Christianity, Conservatism, Constitution, Debate, Democrats, Liberal World, liberalism, religion
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49 Responses to “What are we if NOT a Christian Nation?”
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Interesting piece, but it seems to be lacking in a few key points. First off, Obama’s most recent message seemed to be more a point that Christians are not the only religion in America, more so than any individual morality that we’re based on. But aside from that, if the founding fathers did conceive us as a Christian nation, why didn’t they put more Christian values into our country’s defining documents? Jesus Christ espoused help for the poor and meek, he was a friend of the lowest of the low, the prisoners and prostitutes and diseased of his time. How does our country treat those groups? So much for helping the diseased; the founding fathers didn’t even include universal health care. Our country’s creators envisioned a world where each man controlled his life. Very little federal involvement in state’s affairs, no other role for government other than to protect the country, really. There is no question we’ve strayed far from their original ideals, but my question is, are those Christian ideals? They seem to be independent of religion entirely. If they had wanted this country to grasp Christian goals entirely, why not make adultery a crime? Why allow freedom of speech when it could lead to not honoring one’s parents or spouse? A religious person is not supposed to covet his neighbor’s goods. Our entire economy is based on one coveting another.
There are many ways that I feel we should go back to what Washington and Jefferson and Franklin had in mind for us, though we must acknowledge that the world has changed since their time. But to say that they conceived us as purely a Christian country does not account for why the ideals espoused in the Constitution and other founding documents do not grasp Christian values. They mention god, of course, but not the individual Christian values themselves.
From the Treaty of Tripoli, approved by the U.S. Senate and signed by John Adams on June 10, 1797:
“As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries”
The Treaty Of Tripoli is a broken treaty. It is worthless.
Rob K. wrote, “the founding fathers didn’t even include universal health care.”
Rob isn’t aware of just what comprised medical care in the 18th century. The few hospitals that existed were more for quarantining than actually treating the diseases. Surgery consisted of amputating gangrene limbs because anesthetics didn’t exist that would have made internal surgery possible. I hope you’re starting to getting the idea of just how ridiculous universal government health care would have been to anyone in the 18th century.
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
Nice out of context quotes… and?
and?
You’re going to scare him off with that!
LOL
I know he THINKS he has a point. But in truth, he doesn’t. Further, he probably did not read a word of that posted above because Jefferson’s mistaken anti-religious views were addressed there.
It is always a mystery to me why folks feel that their own religion is the ultimate in religions, when in fact, all religions call for the destruction of other religions.
Doesn’t that actually denounce the spirituality imbued upon any religion?
Deuteronomy called for the complete annihilation of seven nations and their followers (total destruction, as in men, women, children, and livestock)…
My thought being that what is being overlooked is the mutation of spirituality in favor of a religious movement. (read it again if you didn’t understand it)
Just as Christianity has wrenched away the Spirit from its own judgment, so has also Islam done the same.
It IS appropriate to say that this is no longer a Christian nation because the twisted remains of what was Spirituality are so thread bare that there is no semblance of religion.
As for the person who did not return to defend that stance, it would appear that the first statement is a notation of how men tear down other people who have differing views (to the extreme of murder) in the name of God. A very disturbing fact, though, and his words danged near prophesy the destruction of Indian Nations across America (in the name of God)
while the second statement is again a prophecy of the stupidity of mankind’s blind following of concepts beyond their comprehension.In the end we will see that this blind obedience to what we call “religion” will appear as ridiculous as bleeding patients in modern hospitals by learned doctors. (A practice that indeed IS looked back on and seen as barbaric)
Of course, that’s just MY interpretation.
I agree with the original post. I feel no urge to argue anyones point. Everyone does have their own way of thinking. After reading everything, including comments, it’s interesting to see how different and bored and full of anger and arguement we all are. It’s not our generations fault. Alot of people dropped the ball way back through the branches and not only we but our children and so on and so forth will ultimately suffer. Would you consider America A. Fruit of God B. Fruit of Death (We are all small minded and have no idea what is going on or what will.) All we think of is our day to day life stressors. There is a bigger picture today wont last but a second.
A- A nation full of over worked, lost, tired, sick, and confused people. My opinion I do not believe US was ever a Christian Nation. It might have sounded nice to say but I’ve only met 8 actual Christians in my lifetime. People like to go to church just to do it and some people really truely devote their mind heart and will. one out of every hundred or thousand is not a nation.
“A universal theology is impossible, but a universal experience is not only possible but necessary.” ~Jesus Christ (ACIM)
**edited for uncivil, foul language**
a fool has said in his heart, there is no God. if i didn’t believe in a divine being you could not imagine the type of person i’d be. and there are those who don’t. man can only kill the body, which is going to die anyway. if i had no belief that my soul would carry on then my lil stint on this planet would be big. and dangerous. the most they can do is kill me. the least give me a slap on the wrist for crimes that i have enough money to pay for. who would i be if there were no God. o my bad. if i didn’t believe there was no God.
The fact is, Allah and God mean exactly the same thing. They are spoken in different languages, but they refer to the same almighty, loving, wise God. I’m not arrogant enough to say that I don’t believe in a God; I realize that I have no idea how life started. But, to believe in any organized religion is, to me, foolish. Everything that I’ve ever heard about God in my life has been given to me by MEN (humanity, not referring just to males). Even the bible, which was supposedly inspired by God, was written by men. Everyone who has told me that the bible was divinely inspired was human. In this way, I believe that everyone who believes in organized religion has much more faith in man than in God. I believe that there may be a God, but until I speak to Him, Her, or It directly, I will continue to live my life my way, based on what my parents taught me and what my intuition tells me is right.
PS. I have never committed a crime that was more heinous than public intoxication. I’m not saying that that action was right, but I certainly wasn’t trying to hurt anyone or anything in committing that crime. I think hurting people is wrong, despite my generally agnostic (which many people call atheist) philosophy.
United states was based on none compliance. If we ware good boys and girls and did as British told us we would not be a nation.
Americans are individualists. Any infringement on freedom is frowned upon so do as you told or burn in hell does not really click.
Unfortunately, we have Jewish culture here in America, not Christian. In the words of former President Carter, the Jews dominate our new media, not to mention Hollywood movies and TV. Just look at the credits on the movies, most are Jewish names. When is the last time you saw a movie exposing child abuse amongst Orthodox NY rabbis? When is the last time you saw a Jewish produced movies about bad Catholic Priests? You see my point.
The death bed is the best place to look for the belief in the Hebrew God and his Son. It is very hard to find a non-believer there. At the last moment they are not able to deny the Almighty Lord. In the end ALL knees will bow.
Although I am of the belief that one [edited] is as good a president as another; I fear that we have made a grievous error in electing Obama as president. His health care “reform” is a terrible idea and as far as it helping the diseased or elderly – the plan and it’s authors would have them suffer and die to rid our nation of the weak and dying segment of our populace. I have spoken with people who have lived in other countries with “socialized” medicine and have been told you have to wait months to see any physician – which is usually not your family doctor. I also work with a very diverse group of people from many countries at my company, they are 98% a christian/catholic majority with a very few hindis and muslims. I beg to differ with Obama – we are still a christian nation and his refusal to participate in national prayer day and worst of all not calling christmas christmas anymore is unacceptable! Deuteronomy is an old testament book not a new testament book, there is a difference! God was a vengeful God until Jesus changed all that, he is now a loving God and Christianity feels too strong to the heart of so many to be wrong.
We are NOT a Christian Nation. We have never been a christian nation nor should we EVER be one. America is a nation of individuals free to choose any religion or dismiss it entirely. Therefore the president (whom I did not vote for) is correct. If you want to draw your own conclusions about the founding fathers you are free to do so. There are others who draw exactly the opposite conclusions complete with verified quotes to support thier cases as well. For example:
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” -George Washington : Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792
“Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it.” -John Adams: letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.” -James Madison:April 1, 1774
And on and on from plenty of other founding fathers. So playing the quotes game is just the other side of the same coin. In America people are free to choose. If you agree with that statement then you must agree that America is not a christian nation reguardless of and supposed majorities.
We can ONLY assume what prompted the Bill of Rights and The Constitution, was it really Christian values? Or perhaps, upon realizing the inherant flaws in human nature – the founding fathers decided to create a unique document protecting us from the well-intentioned masses that truely think they are doing what’s best for us – by forcing us to be more like them..in all their wisdom.
Will our freedoms be preserved, only if others agree with them?
It seems that no one here knows history enough to know that the values of Christianity, and therefore Judaism, are based completely upon Roman and Greek law and philosophy. And yes, there was a Rome before Roman Catholic, one that was polytheistic and executed both Jews and Christians. Please people, wake up.
This is NOT a Christian nation. What we are is a nation of religious freedom. We have the freedom to choose who/what we want to worship or to not worship any god at all. The fact the “Christians” are so freaking militant is what the problem is. How many people all across the world were killed in the crusades, how many were burnt as witches, how many were tortured to death because the Catholic Church branded them heretics during the inquisition? No one knows for sure but it is most likely in the millions by now. Up until the late 1950’s the Catholic Church was allowed to take you behind locked doors to “question” people about being heretics.
I hope like hell no President ever calls this country a “Christian” nation. Just because they may be the majority religion in the country does not mean that we are a Christian nation. Heck these Christians cannot even get along within their OWN religion. Heck, you have Baptists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Pentecostal and a slew of other “branches” that hate each others guts. SO when a religion cannot stand others of the SAME religion it sure does have a problem.
I think we need to remember that our fore-fathers did not create this country based on Christian beliefs. They built this country on doing GOOD for each other, that’s why it is in the FIRST AMENDMENT. One of the FIRST things our founding fathers did was to make sure that no one religion would be forced upon anyone who did not want to worship it. But the Christians are bound and determined to take that right away from us. Maybe we should outlaw Christianity, oh wait, they are guaranteed the right to pursue their religion in the First Amendment too.
Chris above is a perfect example of a lack of historical knowledge. Lots of assumptions that builds misinformed opinions. Yet he’s so sure of his misinformation that he feels he can call people names and decide THEY are venal. Sir, you need to do some reading.
Warner above is one of the people that refuse to hear anything about his religion. Please tell me exactly what I have assumed? all of what i said is in fact in history books all over the world. How did I assume that the inquisition tortured people for their beliefs in other religions? Did I assume the Christians invaded Turkey and the middle east killing the Muslims because they were not Christian?
So please Warner Todd from Houston Please tell me where my historical facts are wrong. Either that or keep your mouth closed because you know I am correct, that is why you did not and cannot show me where I am having wrong assumptions. You can’t because I have spoken the truth and you Christians don’t want to face the real truth that you and your religion have caused more death and suffering than any other religion known to man.
It’s Huston.
Your silly point about “inquisitions” really is meaningless. More human beings have killed by government than ANY and ALL religions. You are foolish to think religion is worse than communism/socialism.
But your problem is that you haven’t a clue about context in history. You spout isolated facts as if that tells the whole story. You haven’t a clue how it all fits together and you don’t care to find out. All you see is that there was an “inquisition” once, so that invalidates all of religion. You are simple minded in your uninformed approach.
You are also completely uninformed about the religious history of the USA.
You are a mindless religion hater and nothing will dent that child-like assumption. You atheists are more religious than any Christian, I have to say. Your “beliefs” are impervious to reason, discussion, or fact.
1.65 million in 2000 years vs. 153.3 million people killed by atheist regimes in the 20th Century alone.
See there you go just because I do not feel this is a Christian nation and I speak out about why, I am a mindless atheist. I do not hate God; I just dislike his fan club. Because they (and you) are the type folks that decide that anyone that does not conform to your belief in your particular brand of religion is evil or demented.
You go on about how all this death and destruction caused by Christianity is an ok thing if you put it in the right pattern of history or look at why they did it. There is NO reason any religion should persecute anyone that does not follow your religion or your belief in your God. But Christianity has done this many times in our recorded history. You go on to talk about the religious history of our country. Maybe you forgot our fore-fathers left England to escape religious persecution. But guess what it is alive right here in the USA carried on by the Christian followers.
I may not know the exact religious history of the USA, but I am betting I did not get my info from what the Church handed me to take as fact.
Loboinok answered the question I asked
“How many people all across the world were killed in the crusades, how many were burnt as witches, how many were tortured to death because the Catholic Church branded them heretics during the inquisition?”
1.65 million in 2000 years vs. 153.3 million people killed by atheist regimes in the 20th Century alone.
I am wondering if you could show us where you got your information? Because if you look here http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm a nice little site that shows more than a mere 1.65 million were killed by Christians. It even is good enough that it shows where it got its information. Take a look at how wonderful the Christians treat people that are not of their faith.
While there are many Christians that are indeed good people that help others of any faith, there are even more that will beat, burn, slander or just out right kill you for not following their faith. They pretty much use thier religion to bully and badger people of other faiths or no faith at all. Also let’s not forget the Priests and other heads of churches that have raped and molested followers of their faith. Let’s not forget that while many of these Priests were turned in to the Church they were not punished, they were just moved to another church to start their reign of terror there. So yeah let’s tell the world we are a nation of a religion that apparently does not feel the need control their own.
… and I said people that disagree with me are “evil” or “demented” where??
I’m an Orthodox Sabbath observing Jew in Brooklyn, NY. I have no problem with the fact that this is a Christian country. In fact, I’m glad I do. My most fervent hope is that all people embrace their religion, not abandon it. I think we need more religion, not less.
Liberals hate Christianity and are threatened by it because it undermines the “liberal” religion.
This is NOT a nation where everyone is required to be Christian. There is no official government approved religion. We are FREE, like it or not!
It’s a good thing we aren’t a nation that requires reading comprehension, there Chrissy, because you’d never make a good citizen at that rate. Try reading again. If you find ANYWHERE where I said that we should be required to be a Christian or that the founders said that.. well, then you have an argument. Unfortunately for your slight ability to comprehend an argument… I didn’t say that.
every one of your quotes could have been said by a muslim or jew… all three religions are speaking of the same god.
“He sure did not say Allah’s service.”
God is called by many names around the world. Allah included. and Jesus surely referred to god as Elohim or El Shaddai.
Shall we let our forefathers speak for themselves? These and more are available at the library of congress for anyone wishing to educate themselves. Please read on:
“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But
how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been
blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the
most bloody religion that ever existed?”
— Letter to F. A. Van der Kamp from John Adams
“The hocus-pocus phantasy of a God, like another Cerberus, with one body and
three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and
thousands of martyrs.”
— Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson s Works, Vol. IV, 360, Randolph’s ed.
“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation
and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with
advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.”
–Abraham Lincoln, to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after Willie Lincoln’s death
“Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all
of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.”
— James Madison, Letter to Bradford, January 1774, from Albert J. Menendez
and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
“The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense.”
— Thomas Paine
From John Adams to John Tyler, in alphabetical order:
“The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or
a Mohammedan nation.”
— Treaty of Tripoli (1797) signed by John Adams (the original language is
by Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul.)
“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But
how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been
blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the
most bloody religion that ever existed?”
— Letter to F. A. Van der Kamp from John Adams
“The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall
govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it
by fictitious miracles?”
— letter to Thomas Jefferson from John Adams
“We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions
shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and
power… we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and
the state of society.”
— Letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785, from John Adams
“Civil liberty can be established on no foundation of human reason which
will not at the same time demonstrate the right to religious freedom …The
tendency of the spirit of the age is strong toward religious liberty.”
— Letter to Richard Anderson May 27, 1823, from John Q. Adams
“In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions
thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced,
and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind …”
— The Rights of the Colonists (1771) by Samuel Adams
“I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never
disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism
makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am
one or not.”
— preface, Reason the Only Oracle of Man by Ethan Allen
“What you should say to outsiders that a Christian has neither more nor less
rights in our Association than an atheist. When our platform becomes too
narrow for people of all creeds and of no creeds, I myself shall not stand
upon it.”
– Susan B. Anthony: A Biography, by Kathleen Barry, New York University
Press, 1988, p.310
“I have seldom met an intelligent person whose views were not narrowed and
distorted by religion.”
— James Buchanan: from Rufus K. Noyes, Views of Religion, also James A.
Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
“All religions united with government are more or less inimical to liberty.
All, separated from government, are compatible with liberty.”
–Henry Clay: Address, U. S. House of Representatives, March 24, 1818, from
Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great
Quotations on Religious Freedom
“In this country there is no alliance between church and state, no
established religion, no tolerated religion-for toleration results from
establishment-but religious freedom guaranteed by the Constitution and
consecrated by the social compact.”
— DeWitt Clinton: 1813, from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great
Quotations on Religious Freedom
“The sole purpose and effect of it [Article VI] is to exclude persecution
and to secure the important right of religious liberty.”
— Oliver Ellsworth: Philip B. Kurland and Ralph Lerner (eds.), The
Founder’s Constitution, University of Chicago Press, 1987, Vol. 4, p. 638,
Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious
Freedom
“I am tolerant of all creeds. Yet if any sect suffered itself to be used for
political objects I would meet it by political opposition. In my view church
and state should be separate, not only in form, but fact. Religion and
politics should not be mingled.”
— Millard Fillmore: Address during 1856 Presidential election, from Albert
J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
“Many a long dispute among divines may be thus abridged: It is so; It is not
so. It is so; it is not so.”
— Benjamin Franklin: Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1743
“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”
— Benjamin Franklin: Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1758
“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.”
— Benjamin Franklin
“He [the Rev. Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my
conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers
were heard.”
— from Franklin’s Autobiography
“Indeed, when religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people
quarrel about victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either among
them.”
– (Quoted by Joseph Lewis in Benjamin Franklin-Freethinker)
“In 1850, I believe, the church property in the United States, which paid no
tax, amounted to $87 million. In 900, without a check, it is safe to say,
this property will reach a sum exceeding $3 billion. I would suggest the
taxation of all property equally.”
— Ulysses S. Grant (1822-1885), 18th U.S. President, from Rufus K. Noyes,
Views of Religion, also James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
“The United States, knowing no distinction of her own citizens on account of
religion or nationality, naturally believes in a civilization the world over
which will secure the same universal laws.”
– Ulysses S. Grant, Letter appointing the U.S. Consul at Bucharest,
Rumania,
December 18, 1870, from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great
Quotations on Religious Freedom
“Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church and the
private school supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and
state forever separate.”
– Ulysses S. Grant, Address to the Army of the Tennessee, Des Moines, Iowa,
September 25, 1875, from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great
Quotations on Religious Freedom
“I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the
Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in somedegree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation from the political concerns of the General
Government.”
— Andrew Jackson, Statement refusing to proclaim a national day of fasting
and prayer, from George Seldes, The Great Quotations, p. 167, from Albert J.
Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
“[The clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me [as
President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly:
for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of
tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and
enough, too, in their opinion.”
– Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.
“Are we to have a censor whose imprimatur shall say what books may be sold,
and what we may buy? And who is thus to dogmatize religious opinions for our
citizens? Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or
stretched? Is a priest to be our inquisitor, or shall a layman, simple as
ourselves, set up his reason as the rule of what we are to read, and what we
must believe?”
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dufief, April 19, 1814
“To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of
opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.”
– Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779.
“No man [should] be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship,
place, or ministry whatsoever, nor [should he] be enforced, restrained,
molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor … otherwise suffer on
account of his religious opinions or belief … All men [should] be free to
profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion,
and … the same [should] in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their
civil capacities.”
— Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers
“Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children,
since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined,
imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has
been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other
half hypocrites.”
— Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia
“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every
opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if
there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of
blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its
consequences…. If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find
incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its
exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you.”
— Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 10 Aug. 1787. (original capitalization
of “god” retained)
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people
maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of
ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail
themselves for their own purposes.”
– Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813
“The hocus-pocus phantasy of a God, like another Cerberus, with one body and
three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and
thousands of martyrs.”
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson s Works, Vol. IV, 360, Randolph’s ed.
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme
Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable
of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
— Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson’s Works, Vol. IV, p. 365, Randolph’s ed.
“My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation
and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with
advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.”
— Abraham Lincoln, to Judge JS. Wakefield, after Willie Lincoln’s death
Mr. Lincoln was not a Christian.”
— Mary Todd Lincoln
“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society?
In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the
ruins of the civil authority; in many instances they have been seen
upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the
guardians
of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public
liberty may have found an established clergy convenient allies.”
— James Madison
“Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all
of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.”
— James Madison, Letter to Bradford, January 1774, from Albert J. Menendez
and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
“In no instance have … the churches been guardians of the liberties of
people.”
— James Madison
“A just government, instituted to perpetuate liberty, does not need the
clergy.”
— James Madison
“Democracy does not need the church, or the clergy.”
— James Madison
“That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some,
and to their eternal infamy the clergy can furnish their quota of imps for
such a business.”
— James Madison, Letter to Bradford, January 1774, from Albert J. Menendez
and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity
been on trial What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride
and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both,
superstition, bigotry and persecution.”
— James Madison
“All national institutions of churches appear to me no other than human
inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and
profit.”
— Thomas Paine
“There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those
imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as
Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to
the purpose of superstition and falsehood.”
— Thomas Paine
“Everything wonderful in appearance has been ascribed to angels, to devils,
or to saints. Everything ancient has some legendary tale annexed to it. The
common operations of nature have not escaped their practice of corrupting
everything.”
— Thomas Paine
“No falsehood is so fatal as that which is made an article of faith.”
— Thomas Paine
“The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense.”
– Thomas Paine
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest
miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this
thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”
— Thomas Paine
“Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of
God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible!
this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!”
— Thomas Paine
“It was under a solemn consciousness of the dangers from ecclesiastical
ambition, the bigotry of spiritual pride, and the intolerance of sects….
that it was deemed advisable to exclude from the national government all
power to act upon the subject.”
— Justice Joseph Story, quoted in M. Searle Bates, Religious Liberty: An
Inquiry (1945) p. 90, from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great
Quotations on Religious Freedom
“Let it be henceforth proclaimed to the world that man’s conscience was
created free; that he is no longer accountable to his fellow man for his
religious opinions, being responsible therefore only to his God.”
— John Tyler, Caroline Thomas Harnsberger, Treasury of Presidential
Quotations (1964) p. 38, from Albert J. Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great
Quotations on Religious Freedom
“CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, OR
PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF…”
–The First Amendment of the Constitution of the United State of America
Nice list. Most of it meaningless.
You have there a long list of superfluous quotes that atheists love to bandy about as “relevant,” but lets look at the numbers here and not the amount of quotes. (After all, with the number of quotes here you are trying to pretend that there was a lot of hate for Christianity among the founders.)
Here are your 7 ACTUAL founders: Thomas Paine, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Samuel Adams, Ethan Allen, Ben Franklin
In reality you can take Paine and Jefferson right off the list because they were not mainstream thinkers of the founding era, especially Paine because he outright hated God and religion.
That leaves you five. Of those five Franklin was the only one calling himself (at various times) a Deist. So he can be taken off too because despite the idiotic and ahistoric claims of modern atheists, the founders were not “mostly Deists.” In fact only 2 ever claimed they were Deists. Even Jefferson never said he was a Deist.
So, in all those quotes, that leaves you with 4 people that were against organized religion.
And THAT is not the same as being AGAINST religion!
Let us take just a second to remember that there were several HUNDRED founders, not just four! And most all of them were strict adherents to their particular CHRISTIAN (Protestant) religions.
As to the others, you have 12 others quoted but so what? They weren’t founders and their opinions are meaningless in THIS particular debate.
These are meaningless additions to the discussion of the founders and Christianity: John Q. Adams, Abe Lincoln, Mary Todd Lincoln, Susan B. Anthony, Henry Clay, DeWitt Clinton, James Buchanan, General Grant, Andrew Jackson, Millard Fillmore, Justice Story, John Tyler… none of them are founders.
So, your list is a giant FAILURE to convince. But it IS an example of facile, empty-headed thinking . So, good going proving yourself facile.
Very interesting yet very subjective response.
I have only read certain posts claiming anyone ‘hates’ Christianity. Not my point at all. And seems only a very few posters are debating about ‘hating’ anything. Or judging other posters on that point as well as other subjective points.
I don’t perceive the quotes as being ‘atheist’ or Christianity hating either. Nor any of it as being ‘against organized religion’.
Yes, there were ‘hundreds of founders’. But they were not all included in the writing, adoption and signing of the constitution of our country. Christian or not. Having a faith in a god or none.
The title of this thread as I see it on my screen is “What are we if not a christian nation”
Do I believe man has upheld the ideals of our forefathers? Do I think this is a new debate? Do I believe our constitution has been obeyed, followed, enforced, upheld (or any other word appropriate word) since its induction? No.
But were we meant to be a christian specific nation?
No.
There was meant to be a separation. No religion in government and no government in religion. Not to hate or deny religion or belief (or lack there of) of or to anyone. But to guarantee its freedoms of choice, practice, tradition, etc to each, every and all. Separate, personal, respected. Honoring individuality and personal preference. Free.
Is man erroneous despite their best efforts?
Yes
We the people, in order to form a more perfect union establish justice ensure domestic tranquility. Provide for the common defense. Support the general of welfare. Secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. Do ordain and establish this constitution for the United states of America.
No one said it was perfect, just that we have a right to try. And anyone who is about hate and against freedom and an others right to it, is not American.
Empty-headed…maybe. You have a right to your opinion. But not empty hearted.
Sorry for the bellicosity, but this debate goes round and round and it has recently sent me to annoyance all too often.
The fact is we WERE meant to be a Christian nation. We have Christian ethics, Christian roots, and were built of various Christian Churches that essentially ran every one of our first colonies.
The ONLY thing the founders meant to do was keep a church per se from running our national government. (and that was the right decision, by the way). But the fact is every single state (but one) had a STATE SPONSORED religion and all were Protestant and the founders did not mean to force the states to divest themselves of their churches.
The fact is even as a few founders talked ill of organized religions and the clergy, even those same founders said that the nation would not long last the death of the Christian faith in America. They counted on the Protestant ethics we were built on, the “virtue” as they called it, to guide us in our society.
And the fact is that, yes we can get anti-religious quotes from a few founders, but there weren’t just 4 or 5 guys that founded the nation. The greatest preponderance of the founding era were staunch Christians. Some of them what we would consider militant, even.
This white washing of our Christian underpinnings is ahistorical meant to coddle atheists and religion haters of our day. It would have been thought crazy in theirs.
So, while we may have strayed from the founding principles (and I argue it is a bad road) and while we may be much less of a Christian nation now than we were meant to be, it CANNOT legitimately be said that the country is free of Christian underpinnings nor can it be said that the founders didn’t want a Christian nation.
It is historical revisionism of the worst kind to say we aren’t a Christian nation.
Might I remind everyone that the forefathers (and founders) were politicians too? Jefferson consistently wrote in favor of emancipation, and yet he himself owned slaves. Most of our quoted founders, on a personal level, stood against slavery, and yet slaves were not freed until the Civil War.
Now, why would that be?
Our founders purposely muddled many issues in order to achieve their ultimate goal: to create and unite something that under the Articles of Confederation could hardly be called a country. In most of the quotes that have been presented thus far, it appears that the founders were all but strong supporters of Christianity. Yet, as was pointed out in the original argument, Congress was opened in prayer. As has not been pointed out, it is tradition to be sworn in on a Bible, every year politicians go to what is called the “Red Mass,” and every president we’ve had thus far, including Obama, has claimed to be Christian. Perhaps it is the case that these men presented a facade to the public in order to get elected. Perhaps, like with slavery, they decided to leave it up to the next generations to decide whether our nation would be a Christian one or not.
The current identity of our nation should be decided by the present situation, not ones that have passed. If we were to be identified by the years of our founders, we would be a Christian society wherein: women are to be kept barefoot, pregnant, and in the home, African Americans are meant to be slaves, and non-Caucasian nationalities are not allowed to become citizens. Need I remind you that that is NOT our identity?
Christianity may be the largest religion, but most people in the United States are NOT Christians. Saying that we are a Christian nation presumes that it is the state religion. There is a reason that public schools do not say prayer in the morning. There is a reason that we are no longer hanged for witches. There is a reason that going to church is not required by law. We are NOT a Christian nation anymore. The first amendment states that we have religious freedom, meaning that we are not a Christian nation. We are a nation based on the freedom of religion. The attending of the “Red Mass” and opening Congress with prayers can be simply considered tradition and nothing more.
Furthermore…
Dismissing others’ claims simply because they disagree with your views is NOT a valid refutation. You did this, Mr. Huston, when you dismissed quotes from Robin because they were not “mainstream thinkers.” (Might I point out that you used them as examples as well?) Unfortunately, the ones she listed are the ones most people think of when one says “founders.” And it is not like our country has never been changed by radicals.
I’m going to leave you with this. If your going to try and persuade people, I would suggest you don’t use logical fallacies to do so. I have counted several throughout this argument, most of which used by Warner Todd Huston and Chris.
1. Ad Hominem (Attacking the person rather than the argument)
2. Biased Sample
3. Guilt by association (not all liberals are against Christianity; not all Christians hate non-Christians; not all non-Christians are Christian haters)
4. Hasty Generalization (Apparently “Christianity” and “morality” are synonymous. And liberal assumes communistic and/or socialistic? Boy, is my thesaurus out of date.)
5. Misplaced burden of proof (Mr. Warner Todd “from Houston,” I believe YOU have the burden of proof here, not us. You are arguing against what Obama has set as the status quo.)
6. Confusing Cause and effect
And many, many more. Unfortunately, my fingers are too tired to list the rest of your fallacious arguments.
Kayla,
Nearly every single thing you said is wrong.
First of all, don’t bore me with your Hahvard debate rules… they have no value in the real world.
Secondly, your point on slavery is a false dichotomy. The attitudes about slavery changed heavily starting in the 1820s. By the time the founders were passed from the scene the issues surrounding slavery were very different than they were in the founder’s era, so your example is a poor one.
Third, your point of the founders purported false front Christianity for “political purposes” is a bit ridiculous. After all, you are throwing away everything that actually happened (state sponsorship of religion, etc., etc.) and decided that your ability to read the minds of people looooong dead is a much, much more logical basis upon which to decide how we were founded. Try actually reading a few books instead of reading minds of dead folk.
Fourth you are simply WRONG to say that “most Americans aren’t Christian.” IN FACT nearly 75% of this country today claims to be Christian and this is low compared to past eras. So, yes, most Americans are Christians. Or are you so all powerful as to be able to read 400 million American’s minds to know that they are all lairs?
Fifth, saying we are a Christian nation does NOT mean we “have a state religion.” Saying we are an Episcopalian, or Baptist nation would intimate we have a state religion. “Christianity” is not A religion it is many. We are a Christian Protestant nation.
Sixth, your “point” that we don’t say prayer in school “for a reason” is uninformed. We HAVE had prayer in school for 80% of our history. It’s only been the last few decades that we didn’t and that is because of an activist atheist lobby and their lap dogs in the judiciary. It is NOT a common American practice to excise religion from schools.
Seventh, you are also absurd with your “hanged for being witches” point. We became a nation long AFTER witches stopped being hanged so hanging witches was never a tradition in the United States of America. Furthermore it rarely happened here in this country even before we became the USA and your mentioning it is meaningless jibber-jabber.
And lastly, you are foolish to imagine that tradition, past practice and history is meaningless to today. In FACT during the Constitutional debates the founders took up the saying that we can only be guided by experience (history and tradition) because “reason” can lead us astray. (the saying came from John Dickinson of Delaware: “Let experience be our only guide. Reason may lead us astray”)
In fact, our founders were guided by our traditions (including religion) and did NOT expect our nation to be guided by every “new” idea that came down the pike and to ignore our past and traditions.
So, taking your silly post in total, you are wholly uninformed and loaded with the gauzy nonsense that our horrid schools are spooning out like gruel to turn our citizenry into halfwits.
The point is, I am NOT dismissing you merely because you disagree with me. I am dismissing you because you are completely uninformed on everything you pretended to expound upon. But thanks for stopping by, anyway.
If you are going to debate on this forum, pick one screen name, Robin or Kayla… not both!
loboinok,
lol…wrong assumption.
But thank you! You just made me 20 years younger!
@ Warner Todd Houston:
I am curious about your background.
Would you be so kind as to tell us something about yourself (nothing personal, of course)?
You can see my bio right here on the site if that helps any?
@ Warner Todd Huston:
I see that you are skilled at presenting your ideas in writing – and I am not saying that I agree or not with them. But I will take a look at your bio and try to understand what the fundamentals of your position(s) are.
Spinoza: “A man is the man and his circumstances” – or something to that effect. Before opening my mouth – I mean, before posting anything agreeing or disagreeing with you – I must find out how your mind works.
That’s why.
Ah, gotcha. All I can say is that I come from the direction of first having read a lot of history books, especially of the founding and the civil war. As opposed to being influenced by the distorted views of contemporary advocates, I was interested in history long before I started worrying about politics. So my reading of history influenced my politics, not the other way ’round.
But, “finding out how my mind works,” might be the road to madness! Ha, ha.
@ Warner Todd Huston:
“But, “finding out how my mind works,” might be the road to madness! Ha, ha.”
Well, if you say so yourself, I’ll just give up.
But I did try to find your bio around the site. I couldn’t. So, I am sorry we are both going to miss a good opportunity for mutual education. I tried…
Farewell.
You know, I just looked and saw that my bio is not on this site. I forgot that it wasn’t, but it can be found here:
http://www.publiusforum.com/about-2/
I apologize for my forgetfulness.
Christianity is not the only religion that believes in a higher power.
Brush up on theology, please.
You can re-write history all you want but the first amendment to our constitution stated that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. This was so important to them that it was the first thing they wanted documented. If they wanted America to be a Christian nation, don’t you think they would have mentioned that? The fact is, most of the founding fathers were Christian but they would die defending the right of any other religion meaning that America is not a Christian country, it’s a free country.