It would be impossible to defend that DK 9/11 cartoon, right? wrong.
A note from Radarsite: After posting this article to the History Channel Boards I started wondering if anyone would actually write in to defend the Daily Kos’ publication of this cartoon. No, I decided, that would be impossible. They might find a way to attack me, but no one in their right mind could defend that hideous cartoon or that despicable website that published it.
And yet, incredibly, unbelievably, they have.
To me, this response is even more disturbing than the cartoon itself. Although the author of these comments addresses me repeatedly by name, I am deleting his. However, if anyone wants to read these comments for themselves I have provided the link above. Normally Radarsite posts a commentary at the end of an article. But in this case I will not. I will not reply personally because, even though these comments were directed at me, I feel that they are in reality directed at us all. I await your responses. – rg
From The History Channel Boards
Re: The Daily Kos: Beyond Outrage, Beneath ContemptSep 14, 2008 6:35 AM
> Can someone, anyone, explain this to me? > > http://radarsite.blogspot.com/2008/09/daily-kos-beyond > -outrage-beneath.html
I can…but you won’t like the answer. I can…but you don’t WANT ananswer: If any Democrat or liberal out there does not immediately and passionately condemn this post, and condemn this vicious traitorous website and everything it stands for, if any Democrat or liberal out there does not at oncedisassociate themselves from this horror, then you are indeed the enemy, and I hate you as vehemently as I do al Qaeda. Perhaps even more vehemently, because you have the arrogance to consider yourselves to be Americans.Therein lies the problem, Roger. Since I am not about to do what you have demanded, you will immediately label me, as you said, the “enemy”. This is a sickness common to the right; you feel that you MUST have ‘enemies”. Not just to help you sort out
friend from foe, you actually need them to justify your very existence. Before you condemn me however, I would ask only one thing: that you be honest enough to read what I am about to write–in its entirety. You still will not like me, but if you are HONESTLY seeking an answer to your question (assuming it was notrhetorical) I will give you one.I suppose that a dislclaimer is necessary at this point: I lost a very good friend whom I had known since childhood that day. He wasn’t a policeman or firefighter, just one of the office folks desperately trying to get out of the building. He didn’t make it.
Now, for your answer. It would help if you understood something of the grieving process we ALL suffer when tragedy of any sort occurs, from losing a job, to death of a loved one, to facing our own deaths, to deaths on a scale, or under circumstances, that we cannot even begin to wrap our minds around. To this day, the Holocaust, the Stalanist purges, the Pol Pot regime, the Bataan Death March, the fire bombing of Dresden, and others like them are events that I can comprehend intellectually, but not emotionally. Could I take another person’s life? Sure. Could I kill 1,000 people at once? No. Would I feel some overriding guilt at being the agent of another person’s death? Only if I was an unintentional agent.
That being said, the grieving process follows a pretty standard path: first, there is denial that whatever the tragedy is has happened, or is happening. Then, once forced to acknowledge it, we get angry, for we don’t like to suffer pain of loss (and if you believe that people grieve first for others, you are wrong; we grieve first for ourselves, then for others).
As the anger begins to cool down, we begin to bargain. “God, if you take away this disease, I will go to church every Sunday, and build a shrine in your name!” We promise that which we have never been able to achieve before as a gesture that we are serious. It doesn’t have to be to God; it can be to a doctor, (“cure my child, and I’ll give everything I have to your favorite charity!”) our spouse or parent (“If you will forgive me and take me back, I will change my ways!”) the bargaining is pretty straightforward.
But when fate pursues its inevitable course, we enter into depression. We can’t shield ourselves from the truth with denial; our anger hasn’t done us a bit of good; and whatever force(s) in the universe that control things seem to want a higher return on their investment than our good intentions. At some point during the depression, we come to a realization–that whatever it is that has made us grieve is not going to change, to stop, to reverse itself, so we must accept it. We don’t have to be happy about such acceptance–but we acknowledge that things are what they are. If you are outside when it begins to rain, you don’t have to like the rain, but you accept the fact that you are wet. Acceptance is a crucial point in the grieving process; it allows you to move on in your life. It doesn’t mean that you forget what (or who) made you grieve, nor does it mean that you stop feeling sad; it simply means that this thing did, is, or will happen, and nothing is going to change it.
When the twin towers were struck, do you remember your first reaction? I remember mine. “No–this can’t be happening! I refuse to believe it!” That’s denial. A part of the denial is a false hope: “Okay, this is bad; but they’ll be able to get out…”
Then the shots of the buildings collapsing: “NO! Buildings just don’t fall down like that!” False hope: “They had enough time to get everyone out. Those poor people who jumped didn’t have too; they just panicked…”
Then the anger begins: “WTF just happened, and why?” As the story comes out, and it becomes clear that terrorists are trying to hurt this country, that anger becomes rage: “This isn’t your g-damned backward third world country, you a$$holes; this is the USA!” The rage intensifies: “find the f**kers who did this, and kill them; painfully, if possible. Then kill any of their friends with the same idea, then kill their families; hell–find out where they came from and nuke the whole f**king country back to the Stone Age!” We lash out at Afghanistan: “God, let us just go in, grab Bin Laden, and kick the s**t out of anyone who gets in our way. If he puts up a fight, please make sure his death is slow and very painful…”
Then comes a period of depression. We have searched for him and not gotten him. The a$$hole keeps eluding us.” (A return to anger). But then we come to acceptance. We have cleared Ground Zero; we have buried the dead. We have supported the families who had direct losses; we have honored the heroes of that day. Each in our own way, we have tried to understand what Abraham Lincoln understood 143 years ago at Gettysburg: But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract.
But we Americans have a couple of problems with tragedies of this sort. This first is an almost congenital belief that we are (or should be) immune from the same problems that the rest of the world has. We are not. Then, too, we have a large portion of the population which needs to justify their continued anger and hatred against others outside this country–and we do this by great public displays of mourning, even 8 years after the tragedy. Are there people who are still genuinely mouring? I’m sure there are; but the majority do so because it has become expected of them (and certainly, with sentiments such as those you expressed on your blog, perhaps you can understand why someone would rather mourn publicly than be accused of anti-Americanism) .
But there are an even smaller number who continue to use the tragedy for blatanlty self-serving means. This is not the first time it has been done; “Remember the Alamo!” “Remember the Maine!” “Remember Pearl Harbor!” are examples of tragedies which were used for blatantly political causes. (Please note that I DO NOT impugn any of them; I merely state the truth: that they were used as ignition points to fan the flames of both patriotism and hatred in this country, ) The British cartoonist who drew the picture is under no compunction to share our ingrained societal outrage. He may, in fact see our annual mourning as an exercise in ghoulishness, picking at a wound, not letting it heal, as a way to justify our behaviors abroad (and at home).
Finally, why would the Daily Kos call it ghoulish? Perhaps because they understand that Dubya used the tragedy to further his own presidency, and that perhaps giving the country a chance to heal would have been better. Also, when you look at the history of Republican politics, there has ALWAYS been an amorphous external enemy or a heinous internal enemy against which to rally the faithful. And that is what the Republicans need to do: to use 9/11 as a visual image around which the faithful can rally. One need only look at Sarah Palin’s acceptance speech at the GOP convention to see that they pulled out every patriotic image to flash on the sceens behind her; a constant reminder to the faithful of who the “real” patriots were.
It is this reckless willingness to divide the people into “patriots” and “non-patriots” based on their adherence to proper modes of behaviors that is a Republican staple, and leads to assinine statements such as this: …then you are indeed the enemy, and I hate you as vehemently as I do al Qaeda. Perhaps even more vehemently, because you have the arrogance to consider yourselves to be Americans.
Given that trian of thought Roger, how long will it be before you can rationalize calling someone the “enemy” because he comes from a different part of the country, or has a different color skin, or worships differently than you do? There is the answer, roger. I told you that you wouldn’t like it; but it IS th truth.
>A PS from Radarsite: It seems that that entire response in support of that DK cartoon posted at the history Channel has mysteriously disappeared. If this was the decision of their moderator, I applaud them. Unfortunately however, it’s too late. The article has already been written and I am not going to delete it. Someone wrote that response. Someone thought those thoughts. And you published them. Moreover, I believe that these comments did not originate in the mind of one lone lunatic, but accurately represent the opinions of those associated with the publication of those cartoons. For these reasons I am leaving this article untouched. If the History Channel wishes to make any statement regarding this issue I will happily post it – rg
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Posted by Roger W. Gardner on September 14, 2008 6:28 pm
» Filed Under Communism, Domestic Enemies, Elections, Fascism, Foreign Policy, History, Islamicfascism, Moral Relativism, News, Patriotism, Revisionism, RoP, Secular Humanism, Socialism, Unhinged, War On Terror, terrorism
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16 Responses to “It would be impossible to defend that DK 9/11 cartoon, right? wrong.”
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Syndicate Me
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
-Samuel Johnson-
“But let it be considered, that he did not mean a real and generous love of country…”
- Boswell, Life of Johnson. April 7, 1775
…but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made cloak for self-interest.”
-Boswell, Life of Johnson. April 7, 1775
Which is the patriotism that the commenter is referring to.
I was wondering if someone would be foolish enough to post the rest of that quotation. Because all that you have done by doing so is bring into question whether or not my/our patriotism — that is, our real and generous love of country and willingness to fight to protect it — is genuine or not. And that comes down to whether or not I/we are lying. And I/we are not liars.
But you are on the wrong side of this debate, and you are on the wrong side of America.
No more replies to you from me. – rg
That’s the point of the comment and the quote. The Republicans have taken “patriotism”, called it their own, and used it to further their agenda. Don’t tell me that I don’t love my country, just because I fail to blindly follow everything we do. By labeling me on the wrong side of America, you’ve just used patriotism for you’re own self-interest.
mj, don’t say that our patriotism is not genuine love of our country. I don’t know you, and no one here has ever said that you do not love your country. You are implying a lot towards us, but who the heck are you? Don’t pretend to be some kind of victim, when no one here has done anything to you.
Or perhaps you are the original writer of the response to Roger?
I am watching the History Channel documentary on 9/11 as I’m writing this. For the second time. I’m watching it again out of a sense of duty. Because I write about it.
I can only say that I apologize for allowing myself to be drawn into a debate about this subject. The subject of this thread is the destruction of thousands of lives and a cartoon that made fun of it.
Where the hell is the debate? How can there be a debate?
I am just disgusted.
Thank you Jay. I wondered about that myself.
The truth? You haven’t a clue what the truth is!
You have the gall accuse us of having a sickness because we aren’t afraid to declare something evil and someone a coward when we see such behavior. You want proof of mental illness? How about the worship of Castro, Che Guevara as though they are heroes of the people? Or the “truthers” of the dem party? How about when your bretheren declare that the greatest force for good in this world, America, is actually the blame for all that is wrong in the world? They are the people who say we are the biggest terrorists in the world. We aren’t the ones who declare capitalism as evil and want this country turned into a former shadow of itself.
No, you want to pretend that we are the problem because we will not excuse your hatred of this country. Your hatred is amply demonstrated by saying the murder of American citizens at Pearl Harbor, Alamo, etc. was used to further a presonal/political agenda. That we “lashed out” at Afghanistan, that we are xenophobic hate mongers. The ones full of hate are those like you. The reality is your type try to stifle free speech, deprive us of our rights, who see no slur, no dirty trick, no attack as too dispicable to defeat Conservatives. We have watched the left repeatedly break the law in it’s attempt to grab power. Google ACORN as jus ONE example. Who is it that calls Bush a tyrant while saying the Iraqis were better off under Saddam? That’s right, leftits like you.
The truth is you are hateful cowards. We point out that regimes like Iran want us destroyed and you scream we are warmongers while doing everything you can to leave us at the mercy of those who want us dead. You seek to appease and surrender at every turn as the WOT has proven. In your eyes we deserve what happend on 9/11. Rather than go after those responsible you say we need to understand the murderers or accept what happened and just move on and do nothing about it. Newsflash, we have accepted what happened and want to take steps to prevent it from happening again. You would rather live in denial and pretend the effort to stop further attcks is a “bumper sticker”, “American imperialism”, or “American tyranny”. The above are the reasons why we call you unpatriotic and even traitors. It’s because you are. You piss on the grave of your friend defending such a vile cartoon.
Invented enemies? Really?
How ridiculous!
And yes, ass wart, there ARE people still mourning and they will be for the rest of their lives. The fact that those people’s lives meant nothing to you that you would excuse the vast rudeness of the person who drew that cartoon is indicative of a real sickness, a disconnection from being an American
Ayaan Hirsi Ali once said to an arrogant “journalist” “You grow up in freedom and you can spit on freedom because you do not know what it is not to have freedom.”
That is the essence of it.
Like an abusive spouse, the liberal left “loves” American, and wants to see it destroyed because it doesn’t live up to their ideals. The disconnect is not just with one’s citizenship but with reality.
Nothing is perfect. And destroying this country in an effort to perfect it is on the order of what the Nazi’s tried to do.
If you love your country, you love it the way that it is and strive to make it better without destroying it.
To Hard Right and Kay L — A heartfelt thank you. I knew you were out there, people like you, who are as outraged and disgusted as I am, but aside from Jay’s great retort, I haven’t heard from any of you. I already feel better now.
After watching that History Channel 9/11 documentary for the second time this week, I was so filled with anger I wasn’t sure I could come back onto this thread without resorting to four-letter obscenties.
Nice meeting you both. Really nice.
rg
I’m not the guy who responded to Roger, I just happen to agree with the things he said.
I love this country and never said that I wanted to see it destroyed. But I’m not going to sit around and watch my country torture people, deprive them of their rights and use “patriotism” to justify any action. What makes American what it is are the things that are being destroyed right now.
I’m able to look at things from both sides and make a rational decision. I’m able to both praise and criticize my country, unlike everyone here.
I knew from your posts what kind of person you were. People like you like to accuse us of using patriotism to push an agenda. Why? Because YOU would and DO and automatically assume the same of us.
Tell me MJ, who have we tortured? No one that’s who. And don’t give me that water boarding BS, either.
Deprive people of their rights? Again, who? The scum at Gitmo are NOT entitled to the rights of U.S. citizens. The SC can claim all they want that they deserve Geneva Convention protections or the right to challenge their detention, but it’s clear that a liberal ideology was behind those rulings and not legal precedent, correct legal interpretation, or even common sense.
No MJ, you are not a patriot. Just another person who pats themself on the back for “being reasonable” and “rational” while trashing America with false claims. Peddle your liberal guilt elsewhere because we are too informed to fall for it.
The ‘defense’ is a perfect example of what’s wrong with lefty thinking.
First, note the writer refers to “Dubya”, a pejorative reference to The President meant to demean and maybe even demonize the man in the office.
Second, lumping all attacks on the US as excuses for Republican hubris shows how the left ignores Democrats such as FDR and HST and how they conducted war – this in itself is a tool lefties use to generate hate and distrust for conservatives and their motives.
Lastly, it shows the international nature of lefty thinking. We cannot attack anyone for attacking us, because they are us, and such action will naturally lead to attacks on people just for looking like the enemy (a little projection, there Lefty?) – never mind that in the history of our conflicts that has NEVER happened.
Lefties are dangerous – we must guard against their accendency.
mj said
“I love this country and never said that I wanted to see it destroyed. But I’m not going to sit around and watch my country torture people, deprive them of their rights and use “patriotism” to justify any action. What makes America what it is are the things that are being destroyed right now.
I’m able to look at things from both sides and make a rational decision. I’m able to both praise and criticize my country, unlike everyone here.”
You don’t think anyone else looks at things “from both sides?”
No American is proud of every single thing that their country has to do in order to secure its existence. In being an American it is important to understand that we can’t be perfect.
What those on the left propose IS perfection–That we treat terrorists as simply breaking American law. That’s what Clinton did–he treated terrorist acts as simple criminal actions.
That denies the seriousness of these acts, the import of them as acts of war. It denies the reality of human nature. Showing mercy to this enemy is a sign of weakness, not strength, and emboldens them all the more.
So, we water boarded people or scared them with dogs or pictures of naked women. Why is there no outcry when they cut peoples’ heads off?!!
Oh, because you “expect” that they will act that way! But, since you “expect” the US to be sinless, any sin committed in her name is greater than the greatest sin of the enemy.
If you think that what makes America what she is is not engaging in water boarding then you need to brush up on history.
Scaring a terrorist into giving up information that will help save the lives of Americans is necessary. It is a proven necessity.
America doesn’t have to be nice to every single person on the planet to live up to itself.
And maybe you don’t want to see this country destroyed but the only way to bring about Utopia is to wipe the slate clean and start over. The stain of sin is already upon us! We have already made mistakes. We have already engaged in immoral actions for a greater moral cause–ie, HIroshima. (And make no mistake, I do not include that as a mistake.)
I don’t look away from that. I don’t excuse it. What I do is understand the circumstances under which is was carried out and the possible future that we might be living right now if we had not carried it out.
It DID end the war and saved more than millions of lives. It is a burden to bear that we had to do that in order for that to happen. The world is a dirty place, you can’t expect not to get your hands dirty.
And you can’t now stand on principle and declare that you want America to be something other than what it truly is. Because your ability to post in English, no less, is as a result of decisions that you probably would not agree with.
Would you choose to live in an America that was “perfect” but not free?
If not going to war or scaring an enemy meant that you would have to live by the rules of your enemies, would you do it?
Is freedom not what America is about? Not peace.
I dismiss the idea of “peace” as a goal, as an ideal, as something that if we “give it a chance” it will somehow transform or transcend reality. It never has, it never will.
In the absence of freedom, peace doesn’t mean a damn thing!
Patriotism is about preserving freedom and it means bearing the burdens of securing that freedom, from the shedding of one’s own blood or wearing the stain of an innocent’s blood. And only in securing freedom is peace and prosperity even possible.
That cartoon made light not just of American deaths on 9/11, it implies that we “deserve” to be attacked that way, that we do not have the right to mourn for however long we choose, that we do not have the right to remember with sadness.
It has NOTHING to do with criticising policies of America–it has to do with insulting America and her citizens.
People say that we “squandered” the good will of the world that we had after 9/11. It’s hard to squander something that is worthless. Crocodile tears with no substance.
America still stands alone in her freedoms, her peace and her burdens.
You say that you won’t “sit around and watch my country torture people, deprive them of their rights and use “patriotism” to justify any action.”
So, what are you going to do about it? If you are not going to sit around while it happens, what are you going to do to change it? Because the minute that you involve yourself, the minute you leave the confines of your peaceful home, you will be confronted by the realites of life, confronted by hard choices that need to be made.
You will have to make the choice not about patriotism but your own freedom. If “patriotism” as you understand it, is not enough to justify actions that you don’t agree with, is your own freedom enough?
Sadly, I would bet it’s not.