Ron Paul Nuts Busted for Making Their Own Money
Posted on November 17, 2007
If Ron Paul’s followers are not THE craziest political movement in history, I don’t know who the prize would go to. Too many of them fill the ranks of conspiracy nuts, truthers, white supremacists, and koo koo fringe, that when I’m confronted with a reasonable supporter of his I find myself being on guard and cautious. Now we can add a few more kooks to the pile.
Federal agents on Thursday raided the Evansville, Ind., headquarters of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and Internal Revenue Code (Norfed), an organization of “sound money” advocates that for the past decade has been selling a private currency it calls “Liberty Dollars.” The company says it has put into circulation more than $20 million in Liberty Dollars, coins and paper certificates it contends are backed by silver and gold stored in Idaho, are far more reliable than a U.S. dollar and are accepted for use by a nationwide underground economy.
Norfed officials said yesterday that the six-hour raid occurred just as its six employees were mailing out the first batch of 60,000 “Ron Paul Dollars,” copper coins sold for $1 to honor the candidate, who is a longtime advocate of abolishing the Federal Reserve. The group says it has shipped out about 10,000 silver Ron Paul Dollars that sold for $20 and about 3,500 of the copper $1 coins. But it said the agents seized more than 50,000 of the copper coins — more than two tons’ worth — plus smaller amounts of the silver coins and gold and platinum Ron Paul Dollars, which sell for $1,000 and $2,000.
…
In the affidavit, an FBI special agent states that he is investigating Norfed for federal violations including “uttering coins of gold, silver, or other metal,” “making or possessing likeness of coins,” mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering and conspiracy. “The goal of Norfed is to undermine the United States government’s financial systems by the issuance of a non-governmental competing currency for the purpose of repealing the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code,” he states.
You know? Railing against the Federal Reserve and IRS is one thing. Creating your own alternative currency is another. You just can’t do that. One thing Ron Paul supporters don’t lack is zeal. Wow!
My very good and respected friend Ogre takes a very different viewpoint on this one.
» Filed Under ACLU, Illegal Activities, News
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Syndicate Me
“You just can’t do that.”
Constitutionally, you can. In conventional wisdom, you can. In a letter from the head of the U.S. Mint, you can.
Barter currency is legal. It just isn’t legal to pay your taxes with it, and anyone has a legal right to refuse it as payment (which they don’t have with Federal Reserve notes).
There seems to be a growing movement in this nation to consider laws and governments as morally right, and automatically condone all their actions and implications. My question is… why?
You gotta ask yourself why doesn’t the private Federal Reserve want to allow gold and silver to be legal currency? If you don’t know, I suggest you watch America: Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo. It’s on Google video and Youtube!
WOW, I love it when writers like this expose there obvious lack of the basic principles of freedom and your right to do many things in a free society. I would spend some time here but lets hear from the good doctor about the current state of affairs.
“…man is not free unless government is limited. There’s a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: As government expands, liberty contracts.â€
Ronald Reagan
We’ve all heard the words democracy and freedom used countless times, especially in the context of our invasion of Iraq. They are used interchangeably in modern political discourse, yet their true meanings are very different.
George Orwell wrote about “meaningless words†that are endlessly repeated in the political arena*. Words like “freedom,†“democracy,†and “justice,†Orwell explained, have been abused so long that their original meanings have been eviscerated. In Orwell’s view, political words were “Often used in a consciously dishonest way.†Without precise meanings behind words, politicians and elites can obscure reality and condition people to reflexively associate certain words with positive or negative perceptions. In other words, unpleasant facts can be hidden behind purposely meaningless language. As a result, Americans have been conditioned to accept the word “democracy†as a synonym for freedom, and thus to believe that democracy is unquestionably good.
The problem is that democracy is not freedom. Democracy is simply majoritarianism, which is inherently incompatible with real freedom. Our founding fathers clearly understood this, as evidenced not only by our republican constitutional system, but also by their writings in the Federalist Papers and elsewhere. James Madison cautioned that under a democratic government, “There is nothing to check the inducement to sacrifice the weaker party or the obnoxious individual.†John Adams argued that democracies merely grant revocable rights to citizens depending on the whims of the masses, while a republic exists to secure and protect pre-existing rights. Yet how many Americans know that the word “democracy†is found neither in the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence, our very founding documents?
A truly democratic election in Iraq, without U.S. interference and U.S. puppet candidates, almost certainly would result in the creation of a Shiite theocracy. Shiite majority rule in Iraq might well mean the complete political, economic, and social subjugation of the minority Kurd and Sunni Arab populations. Such an outcome would be democratic, but would it be free? Would the Kurds and Sunnis consider themselves free? The administration talks about democracy in Iraq, but is it prepared to accept a democratically-elected Iraqi government no matter what its attitude toward the U.S. occupation? Hardly. For all our talk about freedom and democracy, the truth is we have no idea whether Iraqis will be free in the future. They’re certainly not free while a foreign army occupies their country. The real test is not whether Iraq adopts a democratic, pro-western government, but rather whether ordinary Iraqis can lead their personal, religious, social, and business lives without interference from government.
Simply put, freedom is the absence of government coercion. Our Founding Fathers understood this, and created the least coercive government in the history of the world. The Constitution established a very limited, decentralized government to provide national defense and little else. States, not the federal government, were charged with protecting individuals against criminal force and fraud. For the first time, a government was created solely to protect the rights, liberties, and property of its citizens. Any government coercion beyond that necessary to secure those rights was forbidden, both through the Bill of Rights and the doctrine of strictly enumerated powers. This reflected the founders’ belief that democratic government could be as tyrannical as any King.
Few Americans understand that all government action is inherently coercive. If nothing else, government action requires taxes. If taxes were freely paid, they wouldn’t be called taxes, they’d be called donations. If we intend to use the word freedom in an honest way, we should have the simple integrity to give it real meaning: Freedom is living without government coercion. So when a politician talks about freedom for this group or that, ask yourself whether he is advocating more government action or less.
The political left equates freedom with liberation from material wants, always via a large and benevolent government that exists to create equality on earth. To modern liberals, men are free only when the laws of economics and scarcity are suspended, the landlord is rebuffed, the doctor presents no bill, and groceries are given away. But philosopher Ayn Rand (and many others before her) demolished this argument by explaining how such “freedom†for some is possible only when government takes freedoms away from others. In other words, government claims on the lives and property of those who are expected to provide housing, medical care, food, etc. for others are coercive– and thus incompatible with freedom. “Liberalism,†which once stood for civil, political, and economic liberties, has become a synonym for omnipotent coercive government.
The political right equates freedom with national greatness brought about through military strength. Like the left, modern conservatives favor an all-powerful central state– but for militarism, corporatism, and faith-based welfarism. Unlike the Taft-Goldwater conservatives of yesteryear, today’s Republicans are eager to expand government spending, increase the federal police apparatus, and intervene militarily around the world. The last tenuous links between conservatives and support for smaller government have been severed. “Conservatism,†which once meant respect for tradition and distrust of active government, has transformed into big-government utopian grandiosity.
Orwell certainly was right about the use of meaningless words in politics. If we hope to remain free, we must cut through the fog and attach concrete meanings to the words politicians use to deceive us. We must reassert that America is a republic, not a democracy, and remind ourselves that the Constitution places limits on government that no majority can overrule. We must resist any use of the word “freedom†to describe state action. We must reject the current meaningless designations of “liberals†and “conservatives,†in favor of an accurate term for both: statists.
Every politician on earth claims to support freedom. The problem is so few of them understand the simple meaning of the word.
by Ron Paul, Dr. February 7, 2005
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/
Ya, you can own a piece of paper that states you own XXX amount of silver, gold, or copper.
You can also own silver, gold, or copper.
What you can’t do is counterfeit the US Dollar, which is what they aren’t doing.
So I don’t see the problem here.
Private money is Private money – pure and simple – Even ABC’s parent company Walt Disney makes it.
If you go to Walt Disney World you can exchange US Dollars for Disney Dollars on 1:1 Ratio
All Walt Disney World® Resort shops and restaurants take Disney Dollars as a form of cash. Disney Dollars are available for a one-to-one exchange for U.S. dollars at the Disney Store nearest your home and at ticket booths, Guest Relations and Resort Guest Services locations at the Walt Disney World Resort.
Below is a list of currencies here in the USA. Some are called “hours’ some are called “Blue Money”, “Cape Anne Dollars”.
Out of the list below they went after the “Liberty Dollar”
* Amesbury Hours Amesbury, Massachusetts
* Anacostia Hours [1] Mount Rainier, Maryland
* Area Bucks Palo Alto, California
* Atlanta Hours Atlanta, Georgia
* Bainbridge Island Bucks Bainbridge Island, Washington
* Baltimore Hours [2] Baltimore, Maryland
* Barter Bucks Indianapolis, Indiana
* Bay Area Bucks [3] Traverse City, Michigan
* Berea Bucks Berea, Kentucky
* Berkeley Barter Network Berkeley, California
* Berkeley Bread Berkeley, California
* BerkShares, Southern Berkshires, Massachusetts
* BloomingHours [4] Bloomington, Indiana
* Blue Money Brattleboro, Vermont
* BNI [5] Delaware, Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Jersey
* Boise Hours Boise, Idaho
* Brattleboro Hours Chesterfield, New Hampshire
* Brookings Bucks Brookings, South Dakota
* Brooklyn Greenbacks Brooklyn, New York
* Buffalo Hours Buffalo, New York
* Buffalo Mountain Hours Hardwick, Vermont
* Bull City Bucks Durham, North Carolina
* Burlington Bread [6] Burlington, Vermont
* Butte Bucks Crested Butte, Colorado
* Cape Anne Dollars Gloucester, Massachusetts
* Capitol Area Self-Sustaining Hours Albany, New York
* Carbondale Spuds Carbondale, Colorado
* Chenango Hours New Berlin, New York
* Columbia County Hours Philmont, New York
* Columbia Hours Columbia, Missouri
* Community Cash Durango, Colorado
* Cuyahoga Hours Cleveland, Ohio
* Dillo Hours Austin, Texas
* Disney Dollar Disneyland and Disneyworld
* Flagstaff Neighborly Notes [7] Flagstaff, Arizona
* Floyd Hours Floyd, Virginia
* Fourth Corner Exchange [8] Pacific Northwest
* Great Lakes Hours Detroit, Michigan
* Green Mountain Hours [9] Montpelier, Vermont
* Greyhound Bucks Taft, Texas
* Hero dollar Minneapolis, Minnesota
* High Desert Dollars Prescott, Arizona
* Hobo Dough South Dakota State University, Brookings, South Dakota
* Hollandollars Holland, Michigan
* Houston Hours Houston, Texas
* Humboldt Hours Eureka, California
* Humboldt exchange community currency Arcata, California
* Ithaca Hours Ithaca, New York
* Kansas City Barter Bucks Kansas City, Missouri
* Kauai Barter and Trade Network [10] Kilauea, Hawaii
* Kettle River Hours Kettle Falls, Washington
* Kitsap Hours Bremerton, Washington
* Lehigh Valley Barter Hours Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
* Liberty Dollars [11] Evansville, IN
* Lopez Island Hours Lopez Island, Washington
* Madison Hours [12] Madison, Wisconsin
* Mendocino SEED Fort Bragg, California
* Middletown Cash Middletown, CT, Wesleyan University
* Milwaukee Hours Milwaukee, Wisconsin
* Missoula Hours Missoula, Montana
* Mo’ Money [13] New Orleans, Louisiana
* Mountain Money [14] Mars Hill, North Carolina
* NOCO Hours [15]Fort Collins, Greeley, and Loveland, Colorado
* North Fork Helping Hands Paonia, Colorado
* PDXhours Portland, Oregon
* P.E.N. Neighborhood Exchange Takoma Park, Maryland
* Plenty [16] Carrboro, North Carolina
* Portage Hours Kent, Ohio
* REAL Dollars [17] Lawrence, Kansas
* RiverHOURS [18]Columbia River Gorge, USA
* San Luis Obispo Hours San Luis Obispo, California
* Sand Dollars Bolinas, California
* Santa Barbara Hours Santa Barbara, California
* Santa Fe Hours Santa Fe, New Mexico
* Santa Monica Hours Santa Monica, California
* Sequoia Hours Garberville, California
* Simply Hours Columbus, Ohio
* Skagit Dollars Mount Vernon, Washington
* Sonoma County Community Cash Santa Rosa, California
* Stoneridge Hours Kerhonkson, New York
* Summit Hours Akron, Ohio
* Thread City Bread Willimantic, Connecticut
* Time Bucks [19] Seattle, Washington
* Tulsa Hours Tulsa, Oklahoma
* Ukiah Hours [20] Ukiah, California
* Valley Dollars Greenfield, Massachusetts
* Waldo Hours Unity, Maine
* Wash Bucks Sioux City, Iowa
* Wooster Hours Apple Creek, Ohio
Just look at the charts of the value of the dollar to understand why this has happened.
Please just look and find them.
Dollar vs Oil – Oil’s going up
Dollar vs Euro – Euro’s going up
Dollar vs Loonie – Loonie’s going up
Dollar vs Wheat – Wheat is going up
Dollar vs Gold – Gold is going up (enormously)
Dollar vs Silver – Silver is going up
Research the monetary policy. Research the Federal Reserve. Understand why they want a monopoly on issuing money and credit. Understand why your parents and grandparents had their gold and silver taken from them. Understand who caused (and recently apologized for) the Great Depression. Then finally, look at the Constitution to see if there is a basis for any of the above. Ask yourself if this is how free market capitalism is supposed to work.
It’s all just a matter of history. And rather than doing your own legwork on the issue you accuse people of being crazy. Either you’re wise to monetary policy, stand to benefit from it, and are trying to divert people away from the issue – or you simply haven’t looked at this objectively.
“There seems to be a growing movement in this nation to consider laws and governments as morally right, and automatically condone all their actions and implications. My question is… why?”
The author suffers from a psychological disorder known as Right Wing Authoritarianism. Read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Wing_Authoritarianism
Where do you people come from? It seems all I have to do is put the name Ron Paul in a title and five minutes later I have 6 comments!
In America, there are laws. If you don’t like them, there is a political process to change them. You don’t just break them and then justify it.
I’m curious if Ron Paul would support what these people did. Do you folks think so? If so, please continue to defend it.
The Ron Paul campaign had nothing to do with making liberty dollars. The liberty dollar company was using Ron’s face as a promotional gimmick.
get your facts straight before you go labeling someone as a kook, pplease.
Thanks.
don’t be frightened. we’re from the internets.
Kevin, I never said Ron Paul’s campaign had anything to do with this. I said some of his supporters did. Most of which, that I’ve come in contact with, are kooky.
Dear Jay,
Could you inform the public as to WHICH law was broken? And why the Federal agents are not raiding Disney for their Disneydollars?
Actually Jay, no one needs Paul’s approval to defend this. The Liberty Dollars aren’t Legal Tender, they’re private barter currency. When both parties agree, anything can be used as trading currency. If you and I agree, we can trade a lawnmower for a set of golf clubs. Or, if we agree, I can trade you a 1 oz silver coin for it. Federal reserve notes ARE legal tender and HAVE to be accepted for payment of things such as taxes. There’s nothing illegal about Liberty Dollars in and of themselves. You seem to be confused about whether the company was trying to make “legal tender” money. They weren’t.
This company only now gets raided after 10 years in this business and within days of receiving their shipment of Ron Paul dollars and less than two weeks after Ron Paul hauled in $4.3M in one day.
Call me a conspiracy theorists, but this can’t be a coincidence.
Jay, we probably just came from a Google search.
And yeah, I’m not justifying that people should be allowed to issue their own “legal tender” currencies. I guess it is a court battle at this point to figure that out.
All I am saying is you have to ask why they are doing this? Why and when did they pass this law in the first place? And is Liberty Dollar in violation of this law?
I get amused by folks like the “barter currency” folk. While they may be right about agreeing to accept this for that, the folk arrested were trying to deliberately undermine the currency of the United States and that is not legal. Dr. Paul is from my state and he is basically a good man, however, freedom taken to the extent that these people want often leads to anarchy. If you want to change the laws, try doing it incrementally via the vote but be aware that the kookier one sounds, the less likely one is to win. You may feel good about your vote, but you gained nothing if you don’t win.
Too, this “barter currency” stuff is backed by an awful lot of people. Fine and dandy, there is a consensus. But, like global warming, consensus doesn’t make it correct. There was once a consensus that the world was flat and the center of the universe.
Well, it sure sounds to me like they were creating their own private currency. From what I’ve seen, it appears as though the goal is to mint their own currency/coins, and then have everybody use it instead of US govt. currency/coins…and that, like the FBI agent said, is trying to undermine the financial system of the USA.
The Constitution prohibits states from printing their own money…one would think if that power were denied to the states, it would also be denied to private citizens.
I wouldn’t call it counterfeiting, because they aren’t printing up phony bills…but it’s just a step below that, in my opinion.
And Jay, welcome to the world of Ron Paul politics. All you gotta do is write the name “Ron Paul” in a post somewhere, and they come running. They crawl the search engines, Technorati, etc., to see what is being said about him. They monitor everything, and when they feel their hero is being dissed, they swarm. There’s not that many of them (maybe 50k, I’d guess), but they can mobilize like nobody’s business.
Did you get the hits you were looking for by dropping Ron Paul’s name? I am sure that this was the single most popular article in the history of your horrible website.
I am sure that we will be hearing more from you about Ron Paul in the future, maybe next you can get your facts straight.
“You just can’t do that.”
Yeah? Prove it.
It’s illegal because the Feds say it is? Still needs to be proven in a court of law. And you know what? It will be thrown out.
You know why? Because the director of the U.S. Mint is on record saying that there is nothing illegal about the Liberty dollars.
And, you know, it isn’t like this company just sprung up last night. It has been operating for more than a decade, trading in precious
metals in the form of coins. Absolutely NOTHING illegal. Walmart does not and is not required to, accept them. Only those who wish to
voluntarily trade. The incentive? Because that $1 coin may be worth $5 next week. Imagine that! Money that increases in value instead of decreases.
But, then I bet you think that $100 you have in your savings account from last year has the same value now as it did last year, right?
Ignorant people. So ignorant. You know what? When the depression hits, banks go bankrupt (and you find out they don’t actually have your money)
I am not going to help a single one of you. Why? Because you are so ignorant that you LET it happen while laughing about it.
“…deliberately undermine the currency of the United States and that is not legal.”
That’s called intent, and it needs to be proven. A “raid” is not “proof.”
Seeing that a court has yet to find them guilty, what makes you an authority to say they are?
I am an ardent Ron Paul supporter. I am the organizer of a Ron Paul Meetup Group. I am definitely not a kook. And I strongly disagree with what happened but the US Mint’s website indicates that officials there view Liberty Dollar’s issuance of 100% gold and silver backed currencies to be in violation of the US Constitution, specifically Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5, which reads “The Congress shall have the power to coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures.â€
As the wording of the clause does not address currencies distributed by private individuals or establishments, the Mint also cited federal statue 18 U.S.C. § 486, which reads “Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes… any coins of gold or silver…intended for use as current money… shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.â€
The constitutionality of that law will likely be addressed should the Liberty Dollar case be brought to trial, as the Constitution does not clearly indicate who by law is permitted to produce currency outside of the expressly authorized Congress.
WWRPD?
I guess Disney and all the other private corporations, community organizations, etc that have their own private currencies are all wackos too, eh?
When you start labeling too many other people ‘wackos’, it becomes increasingly clear that you, sir, are the ‘wacko’.
Brian, go read your constitution. It prohibits the states from making any thing but gold or silver coin a legal tender in the payment of debt.
It is not against the law to make your own money. It just isn’t legal tender.
Legal tender means two things: It is the official money of account of the government; and use of it to make payment will be upheld in court as satisfying a debt. This leaves users of other currencies unable to use it to pay tax, unable to get courts to enforce contracts in anything other than the legal tender, and unable to receive payments from government in anything other than legal tender.
The legal tender laws do not and can not outlaw the use of anything else in trade.
The raid is likely to result in ‘blowback’. Meaning, ever more people are going to learn about the history of fiat currencies in the downfall of nations, and question why private parties should print money and then collect interest on it in perpetuity, while asking us to believe they couldn’t be influencing policy. When people learn that our currency is evidence of debt, rather than evidence of wealth, they are flabbergasted. Now that Big Brother has added guns to the mix, it will be interesting to see whether it has the desired effect.
From yet another ’sound money kook’.
“All you gotta do is write the name “Ron Paul†in a post somewhere, and they come running.”
Do you think maybe that’s because we are concerned with what is happening in our country?
Apparently more concerned than you are. Sorry we bothered, you can go back to watching football now.
Commenter #12:
US CODE: Title 18486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title [1] or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
489. Making or possessing likeness of coins
Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title.
Mail Fraud:
Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, or to sell, dispose of, loan, exchange, alter, give away, distribute, supply, or furnish or procure for unlawful use any counterfeit or spurious coin, obligation, security, or other article, or anything represented to be or intimated or held out to be such counterfeit or spurious article, for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice or attempting so to do, places in any post office or authorized depository for mail matter, any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by the Postal Service, or deposits or causes to be deposited any matter or thing whatever to be sent or delivered by any private or commercial interstate carrier, or takes or receives therefrom, any such matter or thing, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail or such carrier according to the direction thereon, or at the place at which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any such matter or thing, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both.
All the above AND more was listed in the original affidavit, if you would bother looking up these crimes, YES CRIMES, you would see this really has nothing to do with Paul, other than his likeness is on them and you folks, and has to do with Liberty Dollar BREAKING THE LAW.
This legal battle has been going on for longer than “Paul’s” face being used.
It is that type of “conspiracy” talk that makes his supporters look like the kooks Jay describes.
And Jay, look at your site meter, under referrals, they are within minutes because they sit and do technorati, google, yahoo and aol searchs for ANYONE that mentions pauls name so they can come spam.
Sitemeter gives the IP and it ALWAYS matches the IP of the commenter.
Read The Constitution:
iconstitution.blogspot.com
Jay, I have to wonder where you people come from. By you people I mean people such as yourself who seem intent on marginalizing Ron Paul and his simple rational ideas of limited honest government. You are intent on blowing out of all proportion the wacky beliefs of a handful of Ron Paul supporters. In the process you distort the views of Ron Paul and smear the vast majority of his supporters who are perfectly rational and clear thinking people.
What is so kooky about wanting smaller government, lower taxes, and less war? It seems kooky to me to try to defend the status quo. Do you actually like paying half your income in taxes? Do you like the government intruding into every aspect of your life and controlling or manipulating every significant decision you make? Do you defend the foreign policy of poking our military nose into every corner of the globe?
You say that “some” of Ron Paul’s supporters were involved in the Liberty dollar. Maybe you should amend that to say “one” of his supporters. It was the owner of the company selling these Liberty dollars who decided to sell one with a picture of Ron Paul on it. The company has been marketing these Liberty dollars without Ron Paul’s picture for 10 years. Why all of a sudden did they get raided now if what they have been doing is illegal?
Commemorative coins are not illegal. Look up Franklin Mint or Danbury Mint. You can buy John Wayne coins and Ronald Reagan coins. The Ron Paul Liberty dollars were no different. These are collectibles and surely are legal to barter.
Is it only okay to make collectible coins as long as you do not state your beliefs that the Federal Reserve and the income tax should be abolished? That is the real story here regardless of your opinions about Ron Paul, the Federal Reserve or the Income Tax.
The “official” dollar is in a rapid free fall. Could it be possible that the powers-that-be are desperately trying to save the situation by any means possible, including confiscating genuinely competitive (i.e, solidly backed) alternatives? If I were charged with trying to save the government’s fiat money, I would overlook Disney Dollars, too, and go after things like Liberty Dollars, which are issued by people who understand the money situation–even better if they’ve been linked, rightly or wrongly, with the one prominent politician who is trying to warn Americans that the monetary house of cards is about to collapse.
GAWD. This stuff isn’t “commemorative coins” as you Paulbots are trying to spin it.
READ THE ARTICLE. Like this part:
“accepted for use by a nationwide underground economy.”
Freaking zombies.
The “underground economy” is simply the free market driven, well, underground. Doesn’t make it immoral … or deserving of persecution. The more authoritarian the government, though, the larger the portion of the free market you’ll find in the underground. Witness the late Soviet Union, where the underground (”black market”) economy thrived because it could deliver the goods that people needed, unlike the state’s economic system.
damn dude…..for fun I posted “Ron Paul sucks” with a bit of commentary. The hits are rolling in…what a weird thing to watch.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
Mohandas Gandhi
How many times I’ve heard cjiii’s comment on a Ron Paul thread is countless. I think Ron Paul’s campaign should adopt it as their slogan.
Jay has opened a magical portal and unleashed the RonPaulitans from their parent’s basements.
Wow it’s a swarm of what appear to be moonbats, anarchists and crazy people!
Income tax may be illegal, but I’ve known people who tried to barter their way through life. It’s not only hard to do, but it puts you on the fringe. I had a lawyer once who belonged to this group, and when he came to give me the will that I bartered for, he was peering out of the window in my living room as though he thought he was being followed. It was creepy!
I think, Jay, that your comment about Ron Paul supporters being somewhat loony rings true, considering how many people swarmed onto this ‘horrible website’, as one commenter put it, within minutes of your putting up this post.
Sorry, I think a Ron Paul post doesn’t rank at all. His following is a strange collection of nuts and conspiracy theorists because he’s voted against the war.
The fact is, I’m not sure if leftists would really like him that much if were to be elected, as far as I recall, he’s for limited government in the traditional sense.
I do not now, nor have I ever owned Liberty Dollars. But the tyrany of the feds using a warrant to steal the assets of this legitimate company just burns me up. Anyone who owns stock in precious metals is now at risk. I suggest we all find someone who has some of these Liberty Dollars and purchase 1 of them and then join in a class action law suit to sue the federal government to receive the silver or gold that backs them up.
Cao- Google News. Leftists, maybe not. Republicans that have left the party since 92′… really good shot.
Since the Feds have declared war on the Ron Paul dollar, maybe Ron Paul supporters should declare war on the U.S. dollar. Wouldn’t it be great if every Ron Paul supporter desecrated the U.S. currency by writing “www.ronpaul2008.com” on Federal Reserve notes? What a wonderfully subversive way to get Ron Paul’s message into the hands of the masses and express our contempt at the government’s money.
I have the story as well and even though I really don’t like Ron Paul simply because he would not vote to tell the troops they were doing a good job the only mention I saw was that those coins were just some of what were taken. I do not agree with the raid unless they can prove they were doing something wrong I thought they were just making coins of all of the candidates so they would have them ready after the election.
This article is great I’m voting Mittins Romney because there is no one supporting him thats kooky. your writing reminds me of one of my favorite journalist Rita Skeeter!
There we go! If you don’t have an argument, and can’t reason, you resort to childish labels, e.g, “kooky”… used by people who never advanced beyond their elementary school-yard. So, well, you’re kooky too! You are too! You’re kooky! Kooky! kooky!, kooky! Yeh, I said “kooky” last, so I won the argument! Yaaa -yaa.
im a little sad that noone really stands up for civil disobedience anymore…we are just supposed to accept the corrupt laws and politicians and somewhat divinly inspired, even though the Fed doesn’t benefit the people. IF England demanded their currency be used during the revolution and some guy dicided, “hey, f that they are depreciating our money and robbing us of our wealth”. You would call him a patriot…the problem is there are not enough people who stand on principle anymore. Everyone wants to assume the government has our backs and that we are actually living in a pure un corrupted democracy. Sorry but the land of the free was gona a long time ago. The home of the Brave, is living under a police state in fear of the unknown. I support what these people were trying to do.
oh also Great Britain thought the founding fathers were a little “kooky”. sorry for the awful grammer and typos above but for some reason the page cuts off and i cant see what im typing past a certain point
Jay, it may be true that most of the ron paul supporters you interact with might come across as “kooky”. However, based on what little I know about you, I’m not entirely convinced kooky isnt how they should come across. Like the previous comment says, I’m sure the British thought the people who dumped the tea into the harbor were all a bunch of kooks too. That’s how it works.
All I want to know is why is a liberty dollar illegal, yet I have in my possession coins from amusement parks, casinos, and even from arcades back in the early 90’s when there still were arcades. Explain.
Has anyone noticed the steady increase of Ron Paul hit pieces lately? More and more of them are coming from both the progressives & conservatives. What’s sad, is the small percentage of people who support Ron Paul. It actually demonstrates how far gone America is. If Americans had a clue, Ron Paul would have massive, massive support to be the next President. Like I said, the fact that he doesn’t, shows how clueless the majority of Americans are. Including the individual responsible for writing this Ron Paul hit piece. Ron Paul is hard. You have to read & study a lot to understand him. It’s much easier to just pass him off as a “koo koo fringe” instead of actually taking the time and effort to understand him.
The constitution still says that only gold and silver can be money – i find that interesting. And
there’s plenty of competing currencies in this country. thanx for article
Sorry to disappoint you Jay, but I’m a great grand mother somewhere in my 60s. And I was NOT a flower child either. No whacko here except 60 + years of experience living, working and breathing as an American citizen. I’ve seen the changes..lots of them…within this country and NONE of them were in the direction of more liberty. And I’ve also made it a point to study as much Western history as I can. If you think people who like Ron Paul are kooks then my guess is you’d feel no differently if Thomas Jefferson were running for office instead. I can’t speak for others but I’m really tired of carrying the weight of everyone else here and around the world. No other candiate, besides Ron Paul has addressed the onerus list of government entities that should be abolished. If you have never read the speech that Davy Crockett spoke on the floor of the house, I suggest you Google it. Ron Paul is of this caliber…something I thought America had completely lost.
Ditch the blinkers, son.
How Sad.
These Fool Who Marginalize Ron Paul As a Game When The Fate Of The Nation Hangs In The Balance.
Have They No Awareness Of Current Events?
Our Money Is In A State Of Free Fall and Hyper Inflation Is Predicted For Next Year.
War With Russia By Attacking Iran Seems More Probable Than Not.
Rather They Would Like To Play Some Kindergarten Game Of “Lets Mess With Those Ron Paul Supporters”.
The Passion For Ron Paul Is Driven Out Of Fear Derived By Awareness.
I Suggest That You Allow Your Self Some Time To Evaluate Events And Then Revisit Your Stand. Your Ineptitude Dooms Us All.
Jay (sorry, no “dear” here),
I have been known to be a little kooky (especially during my younger days). I’m also blonde, and you may or may not hold that against me, as well, but at least I have the sense to think for myself and stand up for what I believe in — which, in this case, is restoring the Constitution to its original glory AND to the people of the United States, not its toy government. You probably haven’t actually thought for yourself in awhile, or you would know a little more about the Liberty Dollar than what the government told you. You are saying just the kinds of things a puppet should say, since it only mimics its master. The Liberty Dollar has been around for a few years now. You can look it up. How long have you know who Ron Paul is?
Jay — first, the folks who created Liberty Dollars have absolutely nothing to do with Ron Paul. As pointed out here, Liberty Dollars have been around longer than Paul has been running.
But the question should be: Why have these people been arrested? What have they done wrong? Do you think that FBI agents should be spending their time arresting people who want to trade gold for good and services? Or should the FBI be worrying about terrorists? Do you feel safer now that the offices of the Liberty Dollar folks have been raided? Did they present some danger to you? I would suggest the FBI wasted billions of dollars here and will continue to waste huge amounts of taxpayer money simply because someone wanted to mint some coins. I think that’s a serious waste of taxpayer money there. But maybe you don’t.
If I might jump in on the “what is money” question:
The Constitution doesn’t say that only gold and silver can be money. It says, in Article I, Section 10:
It doesn’t say that only gold and silver can be money. It just prevents the states — that’s the states — from making anything else be money.
Earlier, in Section 8, it says:
Anyone making money without the authorization of Congress is violating the Constitution.
And, it doesn’t say that only gold and silver can be money, just that states can’t come up with their own substitute, though they can use gold and silver.
That Constitution. Huckuva document. Folks ought to read it some time.
Basil, I think you’re jumping to a conclusion that’s not there. It says states cannot. It says the Congress shall. It very clearly does NOT prevent individuals from doing so. I think that’s very clear.
The Constitution was designed ONLY to LIMIT the power of Congress, NOT to limit ANYTHING individuals can do, ever.
“In America we have laws…”
Yeah… And none of them were broken here. At least educate yourself on the laws you are claiming got broken before you start writing about them.
“Anyone making money without the authorization of Congress is violating the Constitution.”
No they’re not. Private bartering currency is not against the Constution whatsoever. You don’t have a leg to stand on here.
I read it again, and I still read it to reserve to the Congress the power to coin money.
Barter, on the other hand, isn’t prohibited. But making money? I still read it as something that only Congress can do.
Just like you and I can’t declare war. Or raise a navy. Only Congress can do that.
Oh, and there was this one time where the Constitution did limit what individuals could do. Remember the 18th Amendment?
Yeah, it was repealed by the 21st. But the Constitution can be … and was … amended to limit what you and I can do. From January 16, 1919 (effective 1 year later) until December 5, 1933.
But I certainly grant you that the most overlooked of the Bills of Rights is:
We need a good dose of the 10th Amendment.
I wouldn’t normally take note of such misleading journalism but this strike a cord.
Considering that the Liberty Dollars have been around for 10 years, due you really intend to indicate that Ron Paul’s campaign or supporters are in any way connected to this?
The fact is you know they do not, so your intent is to mislead your readers, me included.
What we need is more honesty and integrity in politics and that why I want to see Ron Paul running. You see, even if he is not right on all the issues, even if he is not selected as the GOP’s presidential candidate, he is unquestionably raising the bar for honesty and integrity in the GOP.
There is absolutely nothing that I, personally, can do that can violate the Constitution. Does anyone here disagree with that statement? I can, in fact, declare war all I want. It doesn’t have the power of the United States behind it, but I can “declare” war all I want.
I don’t see anything that the Congress was given power to do that then prevented me from doing the same. Again, in most cases it would be just silly for me to do them, but giving Congress permission to do something is not the same as banning other people from doing the same.
“Anyone making money without the authorization of Congress is violating the Constitution.”
Probably the stupidest statement written in this thread.
The Constitution was written to LIMIT GOVERNMENTAL AUTHORITY, not individual freedoms.
The Congress can print money but that doesn’t mean no one else can. If anyone is violating the Constitution its the Fed for infringing the companies’ property rights.
This company produced play money. It was stamped with its country of origin (USA) and its price in dollars. I don’t see anything illegal about printing or minting play money. I don’t see anything illegal about stamping the country origin or the price on one’s goods. These bills and coins don’t even look like legal tender.
If the government is allowed to bust companies that make play money, Milton Bradley better watch their back.
The feds will not say anything more on this until someone is in jail, or a cash settlement along with an admission of guilt is made. This is how they handled those arrested under the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA), an ammendment to the port security bill that was rushed through at the last minute without a vote. I wonder if there is more people that are for liberty dollars than there are people that like to play poker or bingo online. Anyone who is interested in the LD thing should do some research on how the UIGEA arrests were handled, as i think you will see starking resemblences.
John (#60, 9:27 pm):
I read it again, and I still read the Constitution to reserve to Congress the power to coin money. And as such, any violation of that, is a violation of the Constitution.
Like it or not, the Constitution reserves to Congress several things, including money, the post office, declaring war, raising navies, control patents, and the other things in Section 8.
The limiting of authority of the Congress is in Section 9.
Try reading it again — or maybe even for the first time — and notice that it not only limits what government can do, but also grants authority to government, as well as reserving certain authorities to government.
I would implore you to educate your self on the following questions:
1. Who owns the Federal Reserve? (hint – it is not our government as our forefathers demanded and warned against any “other arrangement”
2. How was the Federal Reserve created in 1913? (hint – JP Mogran and banker led group – see videos on YouTube from very reputable people (and listen to Ron Paul)
3. How did extensive credit expansion in the 1920s (a fancy term for printing loits of money and making our currency worth less) create the Great Depression?
4.How did this happen again the late 1990s and instead of going through the business cycle (downtun), the Fed prints even more money and creates another asset bubble in housing (via lose loan policies)?
5. How is it that the contingency that creates and manages our currency is secretive and has no governement oversight (no minutes, no real reporting, etc.)?
6. Last one (my favorite) – From whom does Ben Benrnanke and the Fed governers receive their paycheck? – If you find out please let us know
To Chad, who printed the long list of private money issuers ….
You can also add to it thousands of strip clubs.
Each of them issuing their own funny money.
Jay and all,
Please watch the video ‘From Freedom to Facisim’.
It will show the legality of the private coins and explain clearly why the FBI and SecretService is clearly in the wrong.
You can just do that.
You can always make your own medium of exchange as long as you don’t try to pass the unit as the current coin of the United States (counterfeiting) and you don’t claim the coin in legal tender (pretense to tender).
The Liberty Dollars neither claimed to be Federal Reserve Notes nor did they claim they were legal tender, so they committed no crime.
Wow, Ron Paul’s opponents are wing-nuts!
LOL! I love it when people use the “The government says it’s illegal so therefore it’s illegal!” excuse. Using the extreme of that argument, the Bolsheviks and the Nazis were well within their rights to slaughter millions of Christians and Jews.
But please, don’t let me interrupt your jackboot licking…
BTW, all this talk of the Constitution and the Bootlickers forget that this man’s RIGHTS were violated. The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution.
Times they are a changin’.
The one thing I know the Ron Paul movement has done is to inform the public about the federal goverments abuses. My thinking has been totally flipped around. Bush was a big dissapointment And i had been a strong supporter. beck hannity rush and o’really are now passe’. I believe they are just ignorant shills of the party to whom they have now come to blindly follow.
I predict that if Ron does not win the big media will seek to quench the internet. As the alternitive media grows the power of the federal cabal will diminish.
You said:You know? Railing against the Federal Reserve and IRS is one thing. Creating your own alternative currency is another. You just can’t do that.
You’re own alternative currency is illegal? Umm, what about Disney Dollars, or the other companies who do exactly the same thing!
The funny part is, “Liberty Dollars” aren’t illegal unless you try to spend them on something (Other commemorative coins work the same way).
You know, I always figured “Disney Dollars” or other such scrip as, well, scrip. Like a gift certificate. Or credit redeemable for goods and/or services, within the limitation of the company, group, or organization that issues the scrip.
Scrip isn’t accepted … or intended to be accepted … universally. That would make it money. Money is one of the powers “vested in … Congress,” according to Sections 1 and 8 of the Constitution. Which means that, unless the laws regarding money passed by Congress violate another section of the Constitution, then what Congress says, goes.
Any scrip used as, well, scrip is not money, and is not subject to the money laws authorized under Section 8.
Jay, you are getting this strong reaction, not because ALL OF THESE PEOPLE (myself included – I am a commercial banker, by the way) are kooks, but because ALL OF THESE PEOPLE know that the status quo can’t hold for much longer. The real kooks in Washington DC are driving this bus faster and faster to socialism, and, frankly, to ruin. Unfortunately this country is about to come unglued because its hard-working people can no longer support the federal behemoth on their backs. I hope you have a front-row seat for the revolution!
I am encouraged to see that most of you are politically informed. The Jays and Miles among you are misguided, but with deprogramming can yet know truth. It is clear that the Empire fears the rumbling of the people. The recent desperate raids on the private mints, reveals the nervous hand. What the illegal raids hoped to achieve, was the suppression of tens of thousands of Ron Paul coins coming to market. The minting of these coins is 100% legal. What is illegal, is the confiscation of the records and private property and the privacy invasion of a law-abiding, American enterprise. Perhaps, the courts will find the grave injustice in this act, though probably not until after the next election is history.
Since the Feds have declared war on the Ron Paul dollar, maybe Ron Paul supporters should declare war on the U.S. dollar. Wouldn’t it be great if every Ron Paul supporter desecrated the U.S. currency by writing http://www.ronpaul2008.com on Federal Reserve notes? What a wonderfully subversive way to get Ron Paul’s message into the hands of the masses and express our contempt at the government’s money.
The real nuts are not Ron Paul people; the real nuts are those in the government who are destroying the value of the U.S. dollar. The U.S. dollar is now at its lowest level in history. Even the Canadian dollar (called the Loonie) is trading at an all-time high against the dollar. Why? Because of the insane economic policy and foreign policy that the U.S. government is pursuing. It’s the people pursuing those policies that are the real crazies.
Jay, I went to college at the age of 16. I’m a very successful business owner at the age of 25. I, no kook, support Ron Paul.
Imagine sitting in a dark room with all your peers; everyone is chained to their chairs. Sunlight from a large window in the back of the room shines brightly on the wall you’re facing. Behind you and your peers, someone is using his/her hands to manipulate the shadows you see in the light. You can never look behind you to see the him or her because your chains are too tight.
Now imagine breaking free of your chains. You run to the back of the room and see the person manipulating the light! You run out into the light desiring to, “learn the truth”, and having seen the truth you return to the room to tell your peers. When you tell them the truth you have learned, they respond by telling you that you’re crazy. You live the rest of your life trying to break everyone else’s chains so you can be with your peers again!!!
Have you paid to watch an “entertaining” movie, or are you more interested on what’s happening outside the theater?
I’ve got your ‘channel’ right here!
It is not illegal to make private barter currency since you can barter if you choose.
Here is the complaint against the federal government by Liberty Dollar.
Jay,
Not normally an insomniac, I am nonethless up at 1:40 am this morning. I somehow stumbled on this site after googling Ron Paul. I have to be at work at 7 am, as I run a derivatives desk for the one of the largest banks on Wall Street. I’m never been called a “kook”, at least not to my face. In fact, as a Wall Street money guy with a Wharton MBA, I am more likely to railed against as a member of some “elite” by citizens normally labeled as “disaffected”, or more cruelly, “kooky”. And I am an ardent Ron Paul supporter. I’ve met a bunch of Ron Paul supporters, and only one so far has struck my as “kooky”. The rest? Other Wall Streeters, a couple of doctors, a few engineers, a construction worker, and a plumber. A cross-section of my community. People with spouses and kids. I would be happy to introduce them to you, as I would be happy to be tell you why a mainstream guy like me thinks Ron Paul is the greatest opportunity that this country has had since I was old enough to vote to re-estabish it pre-eminence. Instead of trashing the man and insulting his supporters, take 30 minutes to read his ideas in detail. At least, 30 minutes. His ideas simply don’t work in soundbite form. And if you still think he’s a nut after that, feel free to explain why. But if you react like most people I know have reacted, your initial reactionary skepticism of him will slowly be replaced thoughtfulness, then respect, then perhaps even unalderated and enthusiastic respect. That’s how it happened for me. And now it is 2 am and time for me to head back to bed.
Hey, look! Someone used the words “values,” “experienced,” “good,” and “Hillary” all in the same sentence.
“I like to think of America as a suffering patient, where Hillary is an experienced doctor. What we need here is some good medicine.”
Socialism has been tried .. it doesn’t work .. her prescription is worse then the cure.
Ron Paul’s treatment of small government, non-intervention, fiscal responsibility and individual freedom is sorely needed.
Jay
Would you rather I buy Euro’s or Yen’s instead of the liberty dollar ?
If you think this is the craziest then you are simply ignorant of the myriad of insane political movements in american history, certainly Lyndon Larouche being the most recent.
Given the competitition for the title of craziest, crazy would seem to be a necessary factor and love him or hate him, Dr. Paul isn’t crazy and neither are his ideas.