Comments on: Ramming Values Down American Parents’ Throats http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/ Beating Them With Their Own Sickle And Hammer Sun, 22 Nov 2009 07:25:23 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.2 hourly 1 By: Brujo Blanco http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/comment-page-1/#comment-62958 Brujo Blanco Sat, 05 May 2007 03:05:49 +0000 http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/#comment-62958 One of my children brought a paper for me to sign regarding AIDS education and safe sex. They wanted my permission to teach them this information. I signed no because they did not teach abstinance. I received a call from the school When I discussed it with them they claimed that teaching abstinance violates separation of church and state. I informed them that abstinance was not religious but scientific. If you do not sit on the rail you do not get hit by the train. I was told that I was wrong. My child did not take the course. One of my children brought a paper for me to sign regarding AIDS education and safe sex. They wanted my permission to teach them this information. I signed no because they did not teach abstinance. I received a call from the school When I discussed it with them they claimed that teaching abstinance violates separation of church and state. I informed them that abstinance was not religious but scientific. If you do not sit on the rail you do not get hit by the train. I was told that I was wrong. My child did not take the course.

]]> By: Pat Penobscott http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/comment-page-1/#comment-62957 Pat Penobscott Sat, 05 May 2007 01:40:54 +0000 http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/#comment-62957 I would still say the same thing regarding evangelical Christianity. I have personal experience with that and I know that Christianity in school that is not also supported by a child's caregivers is unlikely to take. The problem is as I already said, that most parents leave a "value vacuum." I am strongly opposed to any flavor of religion in school, but I would not be worried about my own child in such an environment except to the extent that any time spent trying to indoctrinate the child would be time wasted that should have been spent on real education. I would still say the same thing regarding evangelical Christianity. I have personal experience with that and I know that Christianity in school that is not also supported by a child’s caregivers is unlikely to take. The problem is as I already said, that most parents leave a “value vacuum.”

I am strongly opposed to any flavor of religion in school, but I would not be worried about my own child in such an environment except to the extent that any time spent trying to indoctrinate the child would be time wasted that should have been spent on real education.

]]> By: SAW http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/comment-page-1/#comment-62956 SAW Fri, 04 May 2007 21:07:19 +0000 http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/#comment-62956 <strong>JCBのとんでもない真実、、</strong> ----------------------------------ちわーっす。今日も流行りについての情報お送りいたします＾＾----------------------------------今検索されまくってる言葉----------------------------------JCBギフトカード10万å... JCBのとんでもない真実、、

———————————-ちわーっす。今日も流行りについての情報お送りいたします＾＾———————————-今検索されまくってる言葉———————————-JCBギフトカード10万å…

]]> By: John Bambenek http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/comment-page-1/#comment-62955 John Bambenek Fri, 04 May 2007 19:47:21 +0000 http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/#comment-62955 Somehow I doubt you'd use the same "if they are any good as parents they should easily be able to shape their child's values no matter what is taught in schools" argument if the schools were teaching, say, evangelical Christianity... Somehow I doubt you’d use the same “if they are any good as parents they should easily be able to shape their child’s values no matter what is taught in schools” argument if the schools were teaching, say, evangelical Christianity…

]]> By: Pat Penobscott http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/comment-page-1/#comment-62954 Pat Penobscott Fri, 04 May 2007 18:22:51 +0000 http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/#comment-62954 When the study determined that the abstinence program did no harm, I suspect that they are not factoring the cost of the program, right? Also probably not factoring in the fact that something useful could have been taught during that time? I would also question the comment that "comprehensive sex ed" is trying to bypass parents. I think it is more a matter of stepping in to do that job that parents failed to do. I think it would be great if great if most parents had the know-how to shape the values of their children and enough social responsibility to do so. But this does not seem to be the case. Rather than fighting with the left on such topics as "comprehensive sex ed," the right (and left) should focus on making the nation’s parents more effective in passing their values to their children. If our nation’s children were not having sex too young, or getting pregnant too young, or growing up to become criminals, the left would be stupid to advocate programs to solve nonexistent problems. But these problems do exist, and if parents can’t/won’t fix them then I’m in favor of giving the state a chance to try. The health care and entitlement program costs, and of course the huge cost of housing prisoners, gives the state an interest in filling the “value vacuum” that parents are leaving. No one is ramming values down the throats of parents. Parents values are already formed. And if they are any good as parents they should easily be able to shape their child’s values no matter what is taught in school. No ramming of values is happening here. When the study determined that the abstinence program did no harm, I suspect that they are not factoring the cost of the program, right? Also probably not factoring in the fact that something useful could have been taught during that time?

I would also question the comment that “comprehensive sex ed” is trying to bypass parents. I think it is more a matter of stepping in to do that job that parents failed to do. I think it would be great if great if most parents had the know-how to shape the values of their children and enough social responsibility to do so. But this does not seem to be the case.

Rather than fighting with the left on such topics as “comprehensive sex ed,” the right (and left) should focus on making the nation’s parents more effective in passing their values to their children. If our nation’s children were not having sex too young, or getting pregnant too young, or growing up to become criminals, the left would be stupid to advocate programs to solve nonexistent problems. But these problems do exist, and if parents can’t/won’t fix them then I’m in favor of giving the state a chance to try. The health care and entitlement program costs, and of course the huge cost of housing prisoners, gives the state an interest in filling the “value vacuum” that parents are leaving.

No one is ramming values down the throats of parents. Parents values are already formed. And if they are any good as parents they should easily be able to shape their child’s values no matter what is taught in school. No ramming of values is happening here.

]]> By: Jeff Molby http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/comment-page-1/#comment-62953 Jeff Molby Fri, 04 May 2007 16:52:41 +0000 http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/#comment-62953 So tell me again where the values come into play. So tell me again where the values come into play.

]]> By: John Bambenek http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/comment-page-1/#comment-62952 John Bambenek Fri, 04 May 2007 15:51:05 +0000 http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/#comment-62952 "The facts" as you lay out are already being taught... and in most cases, are even taught in abstinence ed classes. “The facts” as you lay out are already being taught… and in most cases, are even taught in abstinence ed classes.

]]> By: Jeff Molby http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/comment-page-1/#comment-62951 Jeff Molby Fri, 04 May 2007 15:42:31 +0000 http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/#comment-62951 <blockquote>That’s simply not true…</blockquote> Please clarify. I'm not sure which statement you were referring to. <blockquote>Ok, let’s say childbirth… why would a guy care if the girl gets pregnant… “It’s her problem” could be a response</blockquote> The laws of most, if not all, states make it clear that it is not simply "her problem", even if the guy is completely callous and feels no obligation towards her or the child. <blockquote>What about reducing the spread of disease… if you already have it what do you care?</blockquote> If you already have it, you may not. You probably still do, because there are more than a few STDs out there. If you don't have it, you certainly do care. Especially if you choose a less than reputable partner. <blockquote>It stems from a values system as to the meaning and purpose of sex, and there is no way you can cover sex ed without taking a stand on that.</blockquote> I still disagree. Even if you ignore my answers to your questions, it is still perfectly possible to teach the facts without teaching values. "C is a possible consequences of actions A, B, and C. X, Y, and Z can reduce the probability of those consequences by G%, H%, and I% respectively. Now go talk to your loved ones about what choices are right for you."

That’s simply not true…

Please clarify. I’m not sure which statement you were referring to.

Ok, let’s say childbirth… why would a guy care if the girl gets pregnant… “It’s her problem” could be a response

The laws of most, if not all, states make it clear that it is not simply “her problem”, even if the guy is completely callous and feels no obligation towards her or the child.

What about reducing the spread of disease… if you already have it what do you care?

If you already have it, you may not. You probably still do, because there are more than a few STDs out there. If you don’t have it, you certainly do care. Especially if you choose a less than reputable partner.

It stems from a values system as to the meaning and purpose of sex, and there is no way you can cover sex ed without taking a stand on that.

I still disagree. Even if you ignore my answers to your questions, it is still perfectly possible to teach the facts without teaching values. “C is a possible consequences of actions A, B, and C. X, Y, and Z can reduce the probability of those consequences by G%, H%, and I% respectively. Now go talk to your loved ones about what choices are right for you.”

]]> By: jcb http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/comment-page-1/#comment-62950 jcb Fri, 04 May 2007 14:53:53 +0000 http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/#comment-62950 Ok, let's say childbirth... why would a guy care if the girl gets pregnant... "It's her problem" could be a response... probably one most likely to come from an objectivist for that matter. What about reducing the spread of disease... if you already have it what do you care? Now those are questions being the devil's advocate... It stems from a values system as to the meaning and purpose of sex, and there is no way you can cover sex ed without taking a stand on that. Ok, let’s say childbirth… why would a guy care if the girl gets pregnant… “It’s her problem” could be a response… probably one most likely to come from an objectivist for that matter. What about reducing the spread of disease… if you already have it what do you care?

Now those are questions being the devil’s advocate…

It stems from a values system as to the meaning and purpose of sex, and there is no way you can cover sex ed without taking a stand on that.

]]> By: gary l. day http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/comment-page-1/#comment-62949 gary l. day Fri, 04 May 2007 14:34:34 +0000 http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2007/05/03/ramming-values-down-american-parents-throats/#comment-62949 jcb, in stating that there are moral judgments involved in reducing the risks involved in sexual behavior, it's the equivalent of stating that there's a moral judgment in deciding to not walk off a cliff. The only "judgment" involved is wanting to live longer. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised to see that you assigned a "moral value" to gravity. jcb, in stating that there are moral judgments involved in reducing the risks
involved in sexual behavior, it’s the equivalent of stating that there’s a
moral judgment in deciding to not walk off a cliff. The only “judgment” involved
is wanting to live longer. Of course, I wouldn’t be surprised to see that
you assigned a “moral value” to gravity.

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