“Symbol of mourning doesn’t prevent it from being an international symbol of Christianity.”

I would say that the most ‘popular’ group to use the cross is the Christians. It being the international symbol of Christianity does not stop it from being anything else either. It is not only used as a symbol of mourning, but of various power balances, elemental balances, and the relation of MANY divinities to the earth (Odin and some of the Hindu Devas to name a few). Most of the many crosses throughout history have not been Christian crosses. They just get associated with Christianity now because the Christian nations have been the dominant powers of recent history.

I would argue that instead of having to prove that all the people it was dedicated to were Christian for it to be okay one should instead have to prove that everyone involved in building the memorial intended it to be a cross in the Christian sense. Athiests with sticks up their rears can sod off if they can’t prove that because there are plenty of secular meanings behind a cross as well.

The first amendment is clear, you’re right. As is the actions of the people who wrote it, actions that clearly endorsed Christianity. THAT is how we disagree. The Framers obviously did not mean that goverment cannot endorse Christianity, otherwise the Framers wouldn’t have blatantly done so. This is an argument I keep posting that you continually ignore. Thomas Jefferson used government funds to convert Indians to Christianity. Every president in our nation’s history has sworn on the Bible publicly. The Decleration of Independance clearly endorse’s God. “In God We Trust” printed on our money. And so on and so on. Before you say it, I’ll refute the strawman that I know is imminent: Does that mean that our Framers were all Christian, or that these actions were based on Christian motives? Or just a means to an end? Answer: Irrelevant to your argument. No matter the motive, these are CLEAR endorsements of Christianity by the Framers of the amendment you keep misinterpreting. If you need links to some of what I’ve listed, just ask.

Symbol of mourning doesn’t prevent it from being an international symbol of Christianity. I don’t see how I am not trying to rewrite history. The first amendment is so clear. Not even sure how we can disagree on it.

Let me make sure I understand, the only reason you’ve given me so far is that the cross is the international symbol of mourning, so that makes it ok.

I ask, maybe rhetorically, is the cross more an int’l symbol of mourning or more an int’l symbol of Christianity? Obviously it is both, but is it both equally, or is it one more than the other. How could we discover the answer to such a question?

Sure, because there is no one who has ever won a lawsuit that shouldn’t of. Right. Well, by your logic, the 6th Circuit Court shooting down ACLU efforts to have the Ten Commandments removed means that the Ten Commandments display is legal then right? How to you reconcile this with having a Cross removed?

“Put simply, a Christian symbol (the cross) exists to represent many people some of whom are not Christian.”

Because the Cross is an international sign of mourning, used in some cases even in parts of the orient where it is illegal to be Christian.

“This display is on public property which conflicts with the first constitutional amendment.”

If it did the Framers of the Constitution would have prevented such actions. Maybe you think you have a better handle on interpreting the Consitution than those who wrote it. That appears to be the case, because after writing the establishment clause, or Framers went on to publicly endorse Christianity precisely in this fashion. I do honor respect and the truth, you are mereley rewriting history.

I believe in justice. A lawsuit is only as good as the laws it is based on. If the cross was not illegal, the lawsuit would not have been won.

Thank you for that link. I took a quick look through and from what I could tell, the Statue of Liberty that we know of was never a god such as Zeus, Poseidon, and the many other gods you are atheist to.

She is considered a goddess by few but was not build to represent a goddess. When the French gave her to us, she was not considered a goddess or meant to represent any goddess that was known at the time. From this understanding, she is not a goddess but to the few that choose to consider her a goddess.

I took a quick read on her, The Statue of Liberty on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_liberty. That page speaks of replicas such as the Goddess of Democracy, on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess_of_Democracy. Statues only named goddess of Liberty.

It seems that there is no goddess other than the statue itself. I don’t see your point when it comes to the Statue of Liberty. This brings us back to where we were.

Put simply, a Christian symbol (the cross) exists to represent many people some of whom are not Christian. This display is on public property which conflicts with the first constitutional amendment. It is illegal and should be taken down in respect of those non-Christian men it represents and our constitution.

With all that said, you probably still don’t think it should be taken down which brings me to an even greater point.

You spoke of zero accountability which it seems you are guilty of. I am a freethinker, therefore I think for myself without restriction. I made my best effort to entertain your arguments, none of which stood much criticism. If you had “reasonable” reasons to keep the cross up, you should have been able to compel me to support your case, but you were unable.

I on the other hand I have given you multiple reasons why the cross should come down. Freethinkers pride themselves on reason, something it seems you have little of. You do things blindly and without reason and therefore without accountability. If you were reasonable you’d start to see things differently.

If you had to give me ONE good reason why the cross should stay, what would it be? Of course a reason that doesn’t break any laws, or disrespect any of the brave who it represents.

This is but one case this website supports. I wonder how many others there are? What are you an apostle of? It isn’t truth or respect because you are not honoring either.

Leandro Lima
24, Fort Lauderdale

Who wants to be sued?

“The Statue of Liberty? Goddess. Send me a link.”

Sure.

If it isn’t illegal, why is one atheist able to have the cross removed over thousands of people’s objection?

The Statue of Liberty? Goddess. Send me a link. Not sure what you mean. I looked it up, didn’t find anything that made the Statue of any religious affiliation.

Leandro

Because I have a better one: Prove to me, (as Kerwyn rightly pointed out)that everyone in America worships the goddess erected as our Statue of Liberty. If so, I won’t protest to have it removed.

“Even in your statement you are unsure of your desire for truth by your use the word MIGHT.”

What “truth” is that? The only truth involved here is that this Cross is perfectly legal. If you are a free thinker, then try to unbrainwash yourself from liberal propaganda and recognize that God and Christianity have played a very big role in this nation from day one. There is nothing illegal about it, otherwise the Framers of our “secular” Constitution would have put a stop to these things you guys protest along time ago, such as: The swearing on the Bible ceremony, “God” printed on all of our money, the Ten Commandments…

You never told me what you thought of my deal. Why not?

The difference in values between you and I have finally surfaced very clearly. As a “freethinker” I value truth and honesty without provocation. I want what is right, what is legal, what is respectable, always.

You on the other hand say you “MIGHT care, if and when the families of the deceased complain”. Even in your statement you are unsure of your desire for truth by your use the word MIGHT. From your attitude it is clear you don’t care about the truth or the respect this memorial serves. All you care about is the cross. Your faith has blinded you, as it does most of its followers.

All this doesn’t say much about you, or anyone like you. This is why our founding fathers created a secular constitution. To protect the everyone else from people like you.

You speak about “Zero Accountability”. I disagree. People of faith use their faith as accountability for horrendous things. Just look at our history. From the Dark Ages to the Inquisition, people of faith have had zero accountability because they were able to use faith as an excuse.

If you feel that anything I’m saying has even the remote possibility of being closer to the truth than you through, I suggest you take a good look at what you’re fighting for. Ask yourself, “Am I doing this for the brave men and women, or am I doing this for me, and the cross that I blindly follow.”

Leandro
Freethinker