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	<title>Comments on: ACLU Up and Arms Over New Patriot Act Provision</title>
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	<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/</link>
	<description>Beating Them With Their Own Sickle And Hammer</description>
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		<title>By: William Oliver</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/comment-page-1/#comment-45681</link>
		<dc:creator>William Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/#comment-45681</guid>
		<description>Once again, I suggest you take a look at history -- American history-- of the abuse of sweeping legislation that makes crimes of innocent things under the assumption that prosecutorial discretion will take the place of writing good law.  You think it&#039;s OK to make a law that turns innocent people into felons on the grounds that the police will decide who should and should not be prosecuted -- after all, *all* will be guilty, the only difference is in who is prosecuted.

	The fact that we have increasingly done what you propose -- make lots of things illegal so that everybody is guilty of a crime and let the prosecutors decide who goes to jail -- does mean it is a good thing.

	That is almost the definition of a police state -- pass laws that makes everybody a criminal and then just pick and choose who to throw in jail based on whim.

	&quot;The FBI has common sense ... you sound like an 8th grader...&quot;  No, I just have spent a good part of my career cleaning up after people who haven&#039;t shown that good sense you claim.  You want to talk about common sense?  Google on Fred Whitehurst, where the FBI did its best to destroy a good man&#039;s reputation in order to cover up its poor quality control.  There&#039;s a reason they ended up paying Fred a million bucks -- and it wasn&#039;t because he was wrong. Or the FBI&#039;s &quot;common sense&quot; in the handling of Richard Jewell in the Atlanta bombing.  You think we should apply this kind of common sense to everybody.  Or the treatment of Hatfield in the anthrax case.  Or, or, or.

	Abandoning your civil liberties to law enforcement on the grounds that their &quot;common sense&quot; should substitute for good law and due process is not a way to ensure liberty in this country.

	&quot;So make the marks where everyone can see it&quot;  Fine.  Put that in the law.  Then get back to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, I suggest you take a look at history &#8212; American history&#8211; of the abuse of sweeping legislation that makes crimes of innocent things under the assumption that prosecutorial discretion will take the place of writing good law.  You think it&#8217;s OK to make a law that turns innocent people into felons on the grounds that the police will decide who should and should not be prosecuted &#8212; after all, *all* will be guilty, the only difference is in who is prosecuted.</p>
<p>	The fact that we have increasingly done what you propose &#8212; make lots of things illegal so that everybody is guilty of a crime and let the prosecutors decide who goes to jail &#8212; does mean it is a good thing.</p>
<p>	That is almost the definition of a police state &#8212; pass laws that makes everybody a criminal and then just pick and choose who to throw in jail based on whim.</p>
<p>	&#8220;The FBI has common sense &#8230; you sound like an 8th grader&#8230;&#8221;  No, I just have spent a good part of my career cleaning up after people who haven&#8217;t shown that good sense you claim.  You want to talk about common sense?  Google on Fred Whitehurst, where the FBI did its best to destroy a good man&#8217;s reputation in order to cover up its poor quality control.  There&#8217;s a reason they ended up paying Fred a million bucks &#8212; and it wasn&#8217;t because he was wrong. Or the FBI&#8217;s &#8220;common sense&#8221; in the handling of Richard Jewell in the Atlanta bombing.  You think we should apply this kind of common sense to everybody.  Or the treatment of Hatfield in the anthrax case.  Or, or, or.</p>
<p>	Abandoning your civil liberties to law enforcement on the grounds that their &#8220;common sense&#8221; should substitute for good law and due process is not a way to ensure liberty in this country.</p>
<p>	&#8220;So make the marks where everyone can see it&#8221;  Fine.  Put that in the law.  Then get back to me.</p>
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		<title>By: apostle</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/comment-page-1/#comment-45680</link>
		<dc:creator>apostle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Until I read cases of civilians being hauled away to prison after &quot;unknowingly&quot; entering a restricted area, I&#039;d say its an assumption that every single person that &quot;oops&quot; will get slapped with a felony.

	&quot;Not all conservatives believe that the best way to combat terrorism is to establish a police state.&quot;

	That is one of the most irresponsible statements ever. Protecting restricted areas in government is no where near a police state. Its wisdom. We do make exceptions all the time, even if its not written in the law. People that inadvertantly violate our air space are NOT shot down, even though the law doesn&#039;t distinguish between those that do it deliberatly and those that don&#039;t. The same goes with this law. The FBI does have common sense, no matter how many libs want to trash it. You make it sound like a child on an 8th grade field trip that wonders into the wrong room will get hauled away to jail.


	“It would seem that a high security area would be marked well enough…”
	Another assumption

	So make the marks where everyone can see it and end this debate for good. Then violaters will be without excuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Until I read cases of civilians being hauled away to prison after &#8220;unknowingly&#8221; entering a restricted area, I&#8217;d say its an assumption that every single person that &#8220;oops&#8221; will get slapped with a felony.</p>
<p>	&#8220;Not all conservatives believe that the best way to combat terrorism is to establish a police state.&#8221;</p>
<p>	That is one of the most irresponsible statements ever. Protecting restricted areas in government is no where near a police state. Its wisdom. We do make exceptions all the time, even if its not written in the law. People that inadvertantly violate our air space are NOT shot down, even though the law doesn&#8217;t distinguish between those that do it deliberatly and those that don&#8217;t. The same goes with this law. The FBI does have common sense, no matter how many libs want to trash it. You make it sound like a child on an 8th grade field trip that wonders into the wrong room will get hauled away to jail.</p>
<p>	“It would seem that a high security area would be marked well enough…”<br />
	Another assumption</p>
<p>	So make the marks where everyone can see it and end this debate for good. Then violaters will be without excuse.</p>
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		<title>By: William Oliver</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/comment-page-1/#comment-45679</link>
		<dc:creator>William Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, you have already made some caveats.  &quot;Those who purposefully break the law..&quot;  That&#039;s a lot different than &quot;Those who break the law&quot; isn&#039;t it?

	&quot;It would seem that a high security area would be marked well enough...&quot;
	Another assumption.

	Sure.  If the law were written that people who &quot;purposefully&quot; broke the law after being warned off of a &quot;well marked&quot; area, then that is one thing.  The *fact* however, is that these areas are often not marked, and that people inadvertently go into them.  The law would make these people felons.

	One might as well say we should be shooting down all the civil aircraft that inadvertently wander into secure air space.

	Here&#039;s an example I ran into while on Pennsylvania Ave. a few years ago.  The area was normally completely open to visitors.  However, it is closed as a &quot;high security&quot; area when the President or other official flies into the White House by helicopter.  I and an associate were eating lunch in the area, and had been overlooked when the area was first evacuated.  We were not noticed, and did not notice that the area was secured, until an FBI agent rousted us.  Happily, the person I was eating lunch with was also an FBI agent, but by this law, I should be a felon.

	You make the assumption that the only people who would be liable as felons are protestors.  Leaving aside your distaste for such expression, the fact is that they are not the only people who would be liable for prosecution.  Many well-intentioned, and otherwise innocent people would be as well.

	And don&#039;t, please, beg off to prosecutorial discretion.  That reduces the nation to a country in which there are no innocent, only the untargeted.  Tacitus was right when he wrote, 2000 years ago &quot;The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.&quot;

	Not all conservatives believe that the best way to combat terrorism is to establish a police state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you have already made some caveats.  &#8220;Those who purposefully break the law..&#8221;  That&#8217;s a lot different than &#8220;Those who break the law&#8221; isn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>	&#8220;It would seem that a high security area would be marked well enough&#8230;&#8221;<br />
	Another assumption.</p>
<p>	Sure.  If the law were written that people who &#8220;purposefully&#8221; broke the law after being warned off of a &#8220;well marked&#8221; area, then that is one thing.  The *fact* however, is that these areas are often not marked, and that people inadvertently go into them.  The law would make these people felons.</p>
<p>	One might as well say we should be shooting down all the civil aircraft that inadvertently wander into secure air space.</p>
<p>	Here&#8217;s an example I ran into while on Pennsylvania Ave. a few years ago.  The area was normally completely open to visitors.  However, it is closed as a &#8220;high security&#8221; area when the President or other official flies into the White House by helicopter.  I and an associate were eating lunch in the area, and had been overlooked when the area was first evacuated.  We were not noticed, and did not notice that the area was secured, until an FBI agent rousted us.  Happily, the person I was eating lunch with was also an FBI agent, but by this law, I should be a felon.</p>
<p>	You make the assumption that the only people who would be liable as felons are protestors.  Leaving aside your distaste for such expression, the fact is that they are not the only people who would be liable for prosecution.  Many well-intentioned, and otherwise innocent people would be as well.</p>
<p>	And don&#8217;t, please, beg off to prosecutorial discretion.  That reduces the nation to a country in which there are no innocent, only the untargeted.  Tacitus was right when he wrote, 2000 years ago &#8220;The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.&#8221;</p>
<p>	Not all conservatives believe that the best way to combat terrorism is to establish a police state.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/comment-page-1/#comment-45678</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/#comment-45678</guid>
		<description>And for those who purposefully break this law it will be obvious.  I don&#039;t understand where you are coming from Bill, it would seem that a high security area would be marked well enough for common sense.  If they are not, then they should be, and I would suggest fixing that as the problem.  If it is some kind of hard to see line, then I will agree with you until they fix that problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And for those who purposefully break this law it will be obvious.  I don&#8217;t understand where you are coming from Bill, it would seem that a high security area would be marked well enough for common sense.  If they are not, then they should be, and I would suggest fixing that as the problem.  If it is some kind of hard to see line, then I will agree with you until they fix that problem.</p>
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		<title>By: William Oliver</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/comment-page-1/#comment-45677</link>
		<dc:creator>William Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/#comment-45677</guid>
		<description>The problem with these &quot;do not...&quot; statements is that they ignore practical reality.  One might as well make all campaign finance technical violations felonies.  They are not, because if you did so, then *every* politician would be a felon, no matter how hard they tried to be in compliance.

	The same is true with these thoughtless blanket laws that make everything felonies.  The *fact* is that it is trivially easy to inadvertently break a rule like that, and anybody who has spent a lot of time in the halls of government as a staffer or equivalent in DC knows it.  It&#039;s easy to pretend this is not so if you don&#039;t work there, or if you are in a position where you have your staffers do all your work, but in the real world, blanket statements that don&#039;t recognize practical considerations do a lot more harm than good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with these &#8220;do not&#8230;&#8221; statements is that they ignore practical reality.  One might as well make all campaign finance technical violations felonies.  They are not, because if you did so, then *every* politician would be a felon, no matter how hard they tried to be in compliance.</p>
<p>	The same is true with these thoughtless blanket laws that make everything felonies.  The *fact* is that it is trivially easy to inadvertently break a rule like that, and anybody who has spent a lot of time in the halls of government as a staffer or equivalent in DC knows it.  It&#8217;s easy to pretend this is not so if you don&#8217;t work there, or if you are in a position where you have your staffers do all your work, but in the real world, blanket statements that don&#8217;t recognize practical considerations do a lot more harm than good.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Bella</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/comment-page-1/#comment-45676</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Bella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/#comment-45676</guid>
		<description>A felony conviction is a big deal. You lose your right to vote, to own a firearm, it destroys your career, makes you unemployable, etc...

	It is a big deal.  Do not step into a restricted area, do not commit a felony, and you have no problem.  Security is a vital issue.  Just follow the law and stay out of prison.  Want to protest in a restricted area, oh well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A felony conviction is a big deal. You lose your right to vote, to own a firearm, it destroys your career, makes you unemployable, etc&#8230;</p>
<p>	It is a big deal.  Do not step into a restricted area, do not commit a felony, and you have no problem.  Security is a vital issue.  Just follow the law and stay out of prison.  Want to protest in a restricted area, oh well.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Mark Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/comment-page-1/#comment-45675</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Mark Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/#comment-45675</guid>
		<description>I love this site almost as much as my own. However, just because Bush pushes a law through Congress doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s a good one. The Patriot Act is at best a redundant recitation of fourth and fourteenth amendment due process law established over the past two hundred years. At best, it&#039;s a heavy handed attemt to short-circuit time-tested statutory due process protections. The addition cited by the ACLU seems over the top even by the most conservative standards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this site almost as much as my own. However, just because Bush pushes a law through Congress doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s a good one. The Patriot Act is at best a redundant recitation of fourth and fourteenth amendment due process law established over the past two hundred years. At best, it&#8217;s a heavy handed attemt to short-circuit time-tested statutory due process protections. The addition cited by the ACLU seems over the top even by the most conservative standards.</p>
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		<title>By: The Real Ugly American.com</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/comment-page-1/#comment-45674</link>
		<dc:creator>The Real Ugly American.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/#comment-45674</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;How Serious is the Terrorist Threat to America?&lt;/strong&gt;
		Glenn Greenwald of course completely agrees with this Op Ed in the New York Times from Joseph J. Ellis.. They both conclude that those of us who take the terrorism threat seriously are a bunch of frightened rubes who have been manipulated by the spin ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>How Serious is the Terrorist Threat to America?</strong><br />
		Glenn Greenwald of course completely agrees with this Op Ed in the New York Times from Joseph J. Ellis.. They both conclude that those of us who take the terrorism threat seriously are a bunch of frightened rubes who have been manipulated by the spin &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sister Toldjah</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/comment-page-1/#comment-45673</link>
		<dc:creator>Sister Toldjah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/#comment-45673</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;On politicizing the Patriot Act and the NSA &#38;#8217;scandal&#38;#8217;&lt;/strong&gt;
		Debra Burlingame, sister of Charles F. &#38;#8220;Chic&#38;#8221; Burlingame III, the pilot of American Airlines flight 77, which was crashed into the Pentagon on 9-11, writes a must-read opinion piece for the Wall Street Journal on the politicization by the ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>On politicizing the Patriot Act and the NSA &#38;#38;#8217;scandal&#38;#38;#8217;</strong><br />
		Debra Burlingame, sister of Charles F. &#38;#38;#8220;Chic&#38;#38;#8221; Burlingame III, the pilot of American Airlines flight 77, which was crashed into the Pentagon on 9-11, writes a must-read opinion piece for the Wall Street Journal on the politicization by the &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Conservative Outpost</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/comment-page-1/#comment-45672</link>
		<dc:creator>Conservative Outpost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:17:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2006/01/30/aclu-up-and-arms-over-new-patriot-act-provision/#comment-45672</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Daily Summary&lt;/strong&gt;
	NEWS: - Bush Urges Up-or-Down Vote on Alito - Kerry&#039;s Call for Filibuster Praised and Panned - Pentagon Can Now Fund Foreign Militaries - Hamas, Like Fatah, Wants All of &#039;Palestine&#039; - EU Approves Ban on &#039;Homophobia&#039;; Christians Remain Silent...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Daily Summary</strong><br />
	NEWS: &#8211; Bush Urges Up-or-Down Vote on Alito &#8211; Kerry&#8217;s Call for Filibuster Praised and Panned &#8211; Pentagon Can Now Fund Foreign Militaries &#8211; Hamas, Like Fatah, Wants All of &#8216;Palestine&#8217; &#8211; EU Approves Ban on &#8216;Homophobia&#8217;; Christians Remain Silent&#8230;</p>
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