ACLU Says Sikh Dagger Equivalant To Wearing Cross
Crossposted from Is It Just Me?
Handsome knife isn’t it? Oh, it isn’t for show, and there is no bragging rights that my knife is bigger than yours going on here, this monster is a kirpan and is an “ornamental” decoration(?) that Sikh males are to wear as part of their religion. The problem is WHERE they wear it. Going to a religious service or whatever they call it is one thing, but when it is worn in public places that have clearly marked signs declaring no weapons, drugs, etc. are to carried on the premises is a totally different story.
THIS is ornamental? This can be compared to a Christian cross or a Star of David? Well let’s all sharpen those ornaments we wear and make them bigger, cause this is what religion in extreme is all about. Somebody please explain to me how a 10 inch dagger (curved no less for maximum lethal potential) can be ornamental? The ACLU thinks so, and found a judge whose wisdom is questionable at best to back them up. Here’s the story:
US university reviews rules over Sikh student’s rightsBy Jyotirmoy Datta, New York: A Detroit university is reviewing its public safety norms after a judge ruled in favour of a Sikh student arrested for carrying the kirpan, a short dagger, as enjoined by his religion.
Sikh student Sukhpreet Singh Garcha, 23, was arrested on the campus of Wayne State University on Aug 14 last year for carrying a 10-inch kirpan on his hip. He was charged with violating Detroit’s knife ordinance, which prohibits carrying knives with blades longer than three inches.
Detroit 36th District Court Judge Rudy Serra ruled last month that the knife ordinance was intended to apply to people carrying “a knife as a weapon or for some unlawful purpose”.
As Garcha was carrying the kirpan for religious reasons, the ordinance did not apply, the judge said, The Detroit News reported.
“There is no question that forbidding him from wearing the kirpan imposes a burden,” the judge said. “It would be similar to an ordinance that made it illegal to wear a cross or a Star of David.”
Following the ruling, Wayne State Public Safety Director Anthony Holt was quoted as saying that campus officers will not arrest Garcha or other Sikh students who carry a kirpan.
Garcha said carrying the knife was necessary under Sikhism. The smaller knife was worn in case the other had to be removed.
The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and the religious group United Sikhs protested Garcha’s arrest, saying the kirpan isn’t a weapon but an ornamental article of faith that baptized Sikhs must wear at all times.
The university’s attorneys are reviewing possible changes to campus weapons policies to “ensure that everyone can practise religion freely and feel safe on the campus,” Alexandra Matish, assistant general counsel for the college, was quoted as saying.
I do not believe that any religious ornament should be capable of inflicting a lethal wound, nor do I believe that a religious ornament capable of lethal damage should be allowed to be worn in all situations. (Try wearing one into a jail or prison and see what happens, or try wearing one to have an MRI done). It is ridiculous of society to cater to an extreme form of religious identity, especially if the wearer is a peaceful soul but the guy standing next to him may not be. Nothing like having yourself gutted with your own religious ornament is there? How many Jews and Christians are strangled with their own necklaces or have them taken away from them and used to threaten someone else?
Isn’t it said that the Christmas tree does not make the Christian, nor does the Cross? The argument is that personal religious conviction outweighs all trappings of a religious belief. Then why should a 10 inch curved and sharpened blade be acceptable when worn in public places amongst non-believers who would be a little more than anxious to be placed in close proximity to someone wearing one? Crosses and Stars of David can be plastic or glass, why not having the ornamental kirpan required to be worn then be plastic or some other non-lethal material for safeties sake? Are these ornaments allowed on airplanes? When does good sense and reason outweigh the needs of religion in a country that has more than enough cases of violence as it is?
As in all things there is a time and a place for everything. Schools, prisons, on mass transportation systems, in hospitals, and in public buildings or privately owned public access facilities that clearly have policies against the carrying of potentially lethal weapons are just not acceptable situations for a demonstration of faith with such lethal potential.
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Posted by Kathy on January 17, 2006 9:17 pm
» Filed Under ACLU, News, War On Terror
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45 Responses to “ACLU Says Sikh Dagger Equivalant To Wearing Cross”
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Syndicate Me
I’m not at all surprised. I like this part:
Detroit 36th District Court Judge Rudy Serra ruled last month that the knife ordinance was intended to apply to people carrying “a knife as a weapon or for some unlawful purpose”.
So if my religious symbol was a gun, I could carry it or wear it out in public, as long as I don’t carry it as a weapon.
I’m glad the ACLU and the liberal left is so “tolerant” of every religious practice except those by Christians. Our faith has us oppose different life-styles, and we’re all intolerant bigots. This guy’s faith has him carry a weapon that could slice someone’s throat, and he’s just practicing his faith.
My first question is “do they let the professors wear religious ornaments at their State jobs? I know the ACLU to be against that, so what are they doing defending this kid?
–Oh, right, it’s a DANGEROUS WEAPON, as well as a religious ornament. Now it all makes sense!
This is just outragious. The kirpan is specifically designed to cut through necks, hence the curved blade.
When it comes to public saftey, I completely agree on when and where it is applicable to wear the kirpan
I agree, this is outrageous. Who in the world in their right mind would compare carrying a long knife to wearing a small cross. The judge has been smoking his socks again.
I have two points to make on this issue which are on opposite sides of the issue.
The right to bear arms gives us a right that many construe is a danger to public safety yet our Bill of Rights saw it as necessary to protect our rights. Should wearing a long knife or gun be rendered illegal as they can be and are used for self defense.
The size of the Kirpan or how it is worn is not specified in Sikh religion so one with a blade less than three inches can be worn concealed. It is mandatory for “baptized” Sikh’s to wear them.
The ACLU conveinently forgot to mention the detail about length. I wonder why?
Regardless of whether we agree with laws or not, we must follow them, and there should not be exceptions made in regards such as these.
Satsriakal “Stop the aclu” people,
I think you people are very ignorant, baptised christians are not required to wear a cross a cross is wore out of love and devotion but a kirpan is not and it does not matter whether you where a 3 inch one or a 10 inch one the reason behind all of this has nothing to do with public safety or racism. The reason is that on some level all people have become victims of terrorism on a psychological level, such fear has obscured legislation and law makers in the uk too which is where I am from. I dont have any hatred towards any faith and our religion preaches acceptance of all faiths, and sikh have died in the iraq war too so it is not about favouritism.
In uk we had a similar instance and funnily enough it was a sikh who came out in full support of christians right to wear jewellery even though it was not a requirement of their faith have a look:
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/dec/05120803.html
Sikh Minister Supports Right of UK School Girl to Wear Crucifix to School
By John-Henry Westen
DERBY, UK, December 8, 2005 (LifeSiteNews.com) – The news that a 16-year-old UK school girl was suspended for wearing a crucifix at a school where Sikh religious articles are permitted has sparked the ire of the Sikh community as well as the Christian community. Sikh Minister Sardarni Sahiba Gurumeet Kaur Khalsa told LifeSiteNews.com “It is the height of wrongful discrimination to disallow Christian students to wear a crucifix, while yet allowing Sikh students to wear a kara (a religious steel bracelet).”
Deputy head teacher Howard Jones of Sinfin Community School in Derby attempted, in a three hour discussion, to convince student Sam Morris to remove her crucifix. After the 16-year-old remained resolute in refusing to remove her crucifix Jones suspended her. Jones said, “It was only at the end of that that I reluctantly had to exclude her for a day.”
Jones said the wearing of the crucifix violates the schools ban on jewellery. However, UK Tory MP and noted Christian MP Ann Widdecombe told UK papers that the decision was “crazy” and said Jones was “utterly ignorant” if he believes the crucifix to be just jewellery.
Jones explained that the Sikh religious articles are permitted because Sikh faith requires them. “We are very comfortable with our policy and believe we are being even-handed and fair. Christianity does not require followers to wear a specific symbol.”
However, the Minister of Divinity of Sikh Dharma who contacted LifeSiteNews.com explained that the action of the school against Morris was the “height of wrongful discrimination” since “I hold her commitment to wear her crucifix sacred in the same way that I choose to uphold my commitment to wear my kara each day.” Minister Khala continued, “Ultimately, these kinds of outward reminders are symbols of our constant striving to remember God in all that we do. I ardently pray that this school may learn to appreciate and give encouragement to students who have learned the value of commitment in their lives.”
Gregory Carlin, an activist associated with the group Rights of the Scottish Child, has successfully fought UK school bans on Muslim head scarves and also a recent school ban on girls wearing skirts (see coverage http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05070601.html )
In an interview, Carlin told LifeSiteNews.com that the school’s actions violated UK law which specifically prohibits schools from discriminating against religious dress by enforcing uniform codes. “There is no lawful basis for exclusion or suspension in the UK for wearing clothes or symbols related to mainstream religions,” Carlin said.
Carlin will be contacting the Department of Education in London to express “grave concerns that Christians are being prohibited from expressing their faith while other groups are not.”
I hear what everyone is saying but let me remind everyone that the cross was the most lethal instrument of torture 2,000 years ago. I don’t wear one around my neck. The object of my faith is a Person, Jesus Christ. I do not celebrate His mode of death. I celebrate His love for me, His sacrifice. I do not cherish the old rugged cross, I cherish the One who gave Himself for me.
But I understand the symbolism people place upon it. I just happen also to see the irony in this story, thats all.
Mr. Sith, there is a time and place for everything. I’m very pro-whatever religion you wanna express kind of person. I, however, do not think exceptions should be made in laws. Laws are there for a reason. If I disagree with a law, I don’t think I should be treated special, I think the same rule should apply to all. Get the rule done away with so that I can wear weapons for decoration too.
Look, so your religion requires it. Now, lets say some crazy anti-American Muslim were to say that his religion required him to do something similar. Would you feel safe? Well, as long as I could be allowed to also carry a weapon of equal caliber then it would not bother me so much. But why would a special case be made for one person to be allowed to wear a dangerous weapon, despite their claimed purpose. We all know that anyone, despite their religion, could lose it and use that weapon on someone. In this case, only another Sith would be able to defend themselves.
Either everyone should be allowed, or no one.
Far be it for me to support the ACLU in any way… their arguments that this person should be allowed to carry a knife because of ‘freedom of religeion’ while suing to have Christmas break renamed in our schools is idiocy.
To the subject, Did this guy threaten anyone with that knife? Is he a known violent criminal? Are you for arresting people on their way home from the mall with their newly purchased set of kitchen knives? The UK is attempting to ban knives, as well. Since they have banned guns, criminal use of knives has risen dramatically, as has criminal use of guns! Sure this knife could be used in violent crime, so could a bakers rolling pin, so what?
Stop a second, and consider. Is banning inanimate objects really preferable to PUNISHING CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES? Would you _feel_ better if he had concealed the knife, as anyone with criminal intent would have?
I have no problem with the knife, just double standards. Either everyone or no one.
Sat Sri Akal (truth is immortal), i recommanded all of you read about the ‘kirpan’, what it holds for sikhs to wear it before getting into arguments.
http://www.sikhnet.com
http://www.sikhs.org
http://www.sikh-history.com
Singh: Law is law. Period. Otherwise, I can invent my own religion that requires everyone involved to carry M-16s. By the logic posed, if I can get my religion established, the government would have no right to interfere, as long as my intend was legal. Freedom of religion can only go so far. People’s lives cannot be in danger.
” The object of my faith is a Person, Jesus Christ. I do not celebrate His mode of death. I celebrate His love for me, His sacrifice. I do not cherish the old rugged cross, I cherish the One who gave Himself for me.”
Amen!
I am a Christian Crusader. I must wear my sword as a representation of my being a Christian Soldier. I must also wear it as a sign of my war against the infidel. Can the ACLU help me please?
When are we going to get some sanity in our legal system?
Respected Apostle,
Please hear us sikhs out our religion is not made up your laws are man-made our religion came from god, if in christianity their was such a ceremonial dagger or machine gun as an ornament of faith then law-makers would have drafted the allowance of such things well before we sikhs entered your shores, its just in the nature of tolerance and acceptance of the other law-makers have made a just ammendment and I agree I would not like it if a crazy muslim carried and axe but to use that as an excuse to target the aclu is just being pedantic. I have much respect for christianity, as i do for islam, homosexuals and any other minority. Lets not make being conservative a form of ushering in of a religious agenda.
I am sorry you feel this way,
A sikh (not sith thats star wars but does have some parallel with sikhism ie, wouldn’t you let jedis carry a lightsabre?)
“Please hear us sikhs out our religion is not made up your laws are man-made our religion came from god,”
I understand that but the government still has to enforce U.S. law. Its not an easy debate, to be sure.
“A sikh (not sith thats star wars but does have some parallel with sikhism ie, wouldn’t you let jedis carry a lightsabre?)”
Would I let Jedis carry a lightsabre? There is a point there guys. Where would we be if Luke hadn’t has a light sabre? Under the thumb of the Empire that’s where.
I’m not against people being allowed to carry knives, I’m against special treatment. I say when we board the airplanes that the flight attendants pass out guns to every passenger. If I can’t carry a knife, why should you be able to? I’m just supposed to trust that every Sith is honestly devout, and that none of you could be a possible threat?
So, if one of you cross the line, I’m just supposed to protect myself with my bare hands against your 10 inch dagger?
Dear Jay,
I understand what you are saying but politely disagree, the kirpan means alot to a baptised sikh indeed it is a part of the body, you have used the analogy of your bare hands which are also a part of your body, and god gave your barehands to defend yourself as he gave a sikh to defend himself a dagger, but I am not going to ask you to chop off your hands before you take a flight with me because your hands are also a grevious weapon.
I do believe that you are anticipating a negative outcome perhaps you are a phychological victim of terrorism, I think it would have been best if the university upon learning about the sikh religion just ignored the kirpan rather than change going to the extent of changing the laws. Would this make you feel more comfortable that we be continuously arrested then let off upon education, or would it not be more smoother in terms of the hard work that police do to just educate them through a law if thats required so they dont keep repeat offending.
Kind regards,
A sikh, BTW I dont know whether its a deliberate slip of the keyboard but my name is A sikh not sith, the k and the t are of ample distance from one another unless you have gigantic fingers, please refrain from being petty I have respected you and I don’t think that to be a liberal quality.
Understanding the Kirpan
The Kirpan (ceremonial sword) worn by followers of the Sikh religion sometimes raises questions or concerns among people who are unfamiliar with the religion or it’s tenants. The Kirpan is an ingrained part of the Sikh religion and is in many ways it’s religious symbolism is similar to the Cross in Christianity. Just as a Cross is worn be devout Christians, baptized Sikhs are required to wear the Kirpan. The Kirpan is no more symbolic a weapons than the Christian Cross is symbolic of a torture instrument.
Sikhism is a 500 year old religion with over 20 million followers worldwide. It is ranked as a major world religion with even more followers than Judaism for example. Guru Nanak (1469-1539) who preached a message of One God for all of humanity founded it. He stressed loving devotion to God and universal principles of morality, truth and honest living and full equality of mankind irrespective of race, caste, creed or sex. Nine successive prophets succeeded Guru Nanak, the line ending with Guru Gobind Singh in 1708. Sikhism is not a new-age movement, cult or sect, but a well established and respected major world religion with it’s own distinctive beliefs and practices.
The Kirpan has been an integral part of the Sikh religion since it’s early inception and has a very sacred religious symbolism for Sikhs. To suggest that it is a `dagger’, or a `weapon’ or merely a cultural symbol is both misleading and offensive to Sikhs.
To Sikhs the Kirpan is religiously symbolic of their spirituality and the constant struggle of good and morality over the forces of evil and injustice, both on a individual as well as social level. The usage of the Kirpan in this religious context is clearly indicated in the Sikh holy scriptures (Sri Guru Granth Sahib) and wearing it is ment to inspire a Sikh in their daily life;
“To forsake pride, emotional attachment, and the sense of `mine and yours’, is the path of the double-edged sword.” (Guru Arjan Dev, Devgandhari, pg. 534)
“From the Guru, I have obtained the supremely powerful sword of spiritual wisdom. I have cut down the fortress of duality and doubt, attachment, greed and egotism. The Name of the Lord abides within my mind; I contemplate the Word of the Guru’s hymns.” (Guru Ram Das, Maru, pg. 1087)
Guru Gobind Singh introduced the metaphor of the Kirpan to refer to God and his qualities;
“O Sword, O Conqueror of continents, O Vanquisher of the hosts of evil, O Embellisher of the brave in the field of battle. Thy Arms are unbreakable, Thy Light refulgent, Thy Glory and Splendor dazzle like the sun. O Happiness of the holy, O Crusher of evil intent, O Subduer of sin, I seek Thy refuge.” (Guru Gobind Singh, Vachitra Natak, Chapter I)
The practice of Sikhs carrying the Kirpan as a religious symbol can be traced back to the lifetime of the sixth Sikh prophet, Guru Hargobind (1595-1644). Guru Hargobind regularly carried two swords, symbolic of a Sikhs spiritual as well as temporal obligations. Guru Hargobind introduced Sikhs to the concept of being a Sant-Sipahi (Saint-Soldier). A Sikh must be a Saint always meditating and remembering God. At the same time a Sikh is also expected to be a soldier, a person taking part in their social responsibilities to their family and community. Following the path of law, order and morality as laid out by the Sikh Gurus.
It was Guru Gobind Singh, the final living Sikh prophet who formally instituted the mandatory requirement for all baptized Sikhs to wear the Kirpan at all times. He instituted the current Sikh baptism ceremony in 1699 which is referred to as the `baptism of the sword’ (khanda di pahul). During the ceremony sugar crystals and water are stirred in a steel bowl with a Kirpan before the initiate drinks the mixture. During the baptism ceremony the initiate is instructed in the duties and obligations of becoming a Khalsa (one belonging to the Divine). The Khalsa is expected to live by the high moral standards of the Sikh Gurus at all times which includes such things as abstaining from smoking, drinking and other intoxicants, performing daily prayers and always maintaining the distinctive physical symbols of Sikhism on their person. The most noticeable of these being uncut hair and carrying the Kirpan.
This injunction appears in the Reht Maryada (The Official Sikh Code of Conduct); “Have, on your person, all the time, the five K’s: The Keshas (unshorn hair), the Kirpan (sheathed sword), the Kachhehra (drawers like garment), the Kanga (comb), the Karha (steel bracelet).” (Reht Maryada, Ceremony of Baptism or Initiation, Section 6, Chapter XIII, Article XXIV, paragraph (p))
The Reht Maryada does not specify the length of the Kirpan or how it is to be worn by the devotee. Kirpans can be anywhere from 3 foot swords carried by Sikhs on religious festivals, marriages and parades, to a few inches in length. They can either be worn over ones clothing or under the clothing. The Kirpan is usually kept sheathed except when it is withdrawn from it’s casing on such occasions as consecration of the ceremonial sweet pudding distributed during religious ceremonies.
To suggest that the Kirpan is a weapon is both incorrect and misleading. If it was instituted as a weapon, then would Sikhs not be expected to carry guns today? Guns were in common use during the time of Guru Gobind Singh. If the Kirpan was purely a soldiers weapon for Sikhs, than why do they not also carry a shield as well or other armour? Why do modern armies and soldiers carry swords on ceremonial occasions? Because it is symbolic of their military tradition and heritage. In the same way Sikhs carry the Kirpan at all times because it is symbolic of their religious tradition and heritage.
http://www.sikhs.org/art12.htm
Sorry Jay
I think I am being a bit dozy what you are trying to say is that you want the right to carry a dagger too, I must advise you that their is a discipline in sikhism all about weapons called gatka or shaster vidya we are taught to respect the holyness of weapons, carrying a dagger brings with it a great responsibility, have you had that intense nurturing about weapons? If you have then I am all for you carrying a dagger in the name of equality.
A sikh
I’m a female and a sikh and I wear the kirpan. I just wanted to tell you a few reasons why you shouldn’t be afraid of the kirpan:
1) It’s not a symbol of self defense so it would never be used as a weapon
2) It has a completely blunt edge so even if I tried to cut you with it I wouldn’t be able to
3) We don’t wear it on airplanes
4) It’s very difficult to even take the actual “knife” part out of it’s case…so by the time I or anyone else could get it out you could have gotten away
5) Sikhs have been in the states for over a hundred years and I’m positive they have been carrying around kirpans that whole time. I haven’t heard of a single person killed by a kirpan.
6) The only reason you’re afraid of us now is because of 9/11 and our males have turbans and beards. That doesn’t make us terrorists. The guy who did the oklahoma bombing was a christian…not all christians are terrorists. Olsen, a horrible canadian serial killer who killed little girls by putting nails through their heads and other horrendous acts, proclaimed loudly that he was Christian…not all christians are terrorists.
6) George W. Bush met with a group of sikhs in the White house. Those sikhs were allowed to wear their kirpans. If the president’s safe I think you are too.
This is certainly turning out to be an interesting and educational thread!
It would appear that those sikhs responding to this have forgotten to mention that they also have bracelets that must be worn at all time and can not be removed without their permission. I suggest that they keep their bracelets and other jewelry and follow the laws regarding weapons without putting an undo burden on society by forcing their kirpans on a society that cringes at any kind of weaponry and have laws made to enforce societies safety at large.
If you are using them for ceremony keep it there – serve as much sweet pudding as you like and wear them ceremoniously. Don’t suggest that non-sikhs who are military and wear swords wouldn’t be thought to be crazy and treated like a potential threat to society, if they decided to wear their swords any place other than a dress ceremony.
Like I said there is a place and time for everything. Laws are made to keep society safe, not be bent to accommodate a few.
This polemic shows little sensitivity to communities that don’t see the practice of their traditions as simply a private affair, which is to be shunned in public. Dichotomies of public/private, religious/secular, sacred/profane are Christian notions and much of the world is not Christian, neither do Christians have a monopoly over this part of the world, to which they immigrated like other communities. Therefore, understanding that when a Sikh leaves home, he or she cannot leave articles of faith behind is central to furthering this debate. And equating a cross to a kirpan is too simplistic and incorrect. Kirpan is a mandatory article of faith that all initiated Sikhs must carry on their persons if they are to remain Sikhs according to the tenets of their faith. The same is not true for Christians; the cross is not a required article that defines their being. Kirpans also cannot be worn as symbols, so plastic would be unacceptable. Lastly, it needs to be understood that no muders have ever been committed with a kirpan but plenty have been with baseball bats. So let us first ban baseball bats and guns before we worry about a relatively small number of kirpans in the United States and the world.
One thing that you all seem to be missing in your arguments to keep the kirpan and wear it anywhere is that you are putting yourself above the law. Your religion and accoutriments are not above the law. If our laws say you can’t wear them, respect our laws as this is what the larger majority believes is right.
Your kirpan is not used for self-defense, it was inspired to be worn to fight against repression. It is a fighting weapon and is intended by dogma to be a symbol not of peace but as a reminder to fight for the faith and to fight against those that repress you.
Your rationalizations are ludicrious. Should your religion be such a burden for you then possibly your religion needs changing. It is not like other religions haven’t changed over the years to accommodate being acceptable in society to avoid osterization and ridicule. It is time your religion entered the 21st century. Nobody wants someone elses religion in their face – especially if it is a curved 10 inch blade.
Kathy, the Sikh religion meant for the 21st century and beyond because of its beliefs like complete equality between men and women since the 16th century. When do you think the Catholic Church would have a female Pope or a Bishop? The Sikhs had female Bishops (called “manjis”) in the 16th century. A few centuries ahead of your times! Lastly, the argument about laws is simply absurd because laws can be changed, much like the slavery laws in this country. The racist laws banning the kirpan are also being changed, as you can see based on the judge’s ruling in Michigan. Your thinking is not coherent in this matter and I would recommend approaching this issue with an open mind. If my religion were a burden, I would have abandoned it; no one is holding a gun to my head to practice my faith in a certain way. Not everyone can be alike. Everyone has their own beliefs and the First Amendment protects free exercise. Your K.K.K. attitude of getting rid of what you think goes against your Christian values is dangerous. God bless the A.C.L.U.
“It’s a BLUNT sword used as a symbol, get over it.”
Doesn’t matter. Its still a weapon. If I walked around with a shotgun because it reminded me to fight injustice it would be against the law.
“They only ever attacked after someone had attacked them. Unlike the U.S. ie. Iraq”
Thank God. I’d rather be on offense.
“Regarding laws, they change, that’s why we have the right to have ammendments, otherwise we’d still be back in the 18th century.”
You’re saying that it would be considered progress to let people carry weapons on college campuses in the name of religion?
I see. The ACLU is only eeeevial when it defends the rights of those heathen religions.
Ah ha. Here the real objective become clear. A Christian supremacist refers to the Sikhs as “heathens!” Sir, are not late for your Ku Klux Klan meeting?
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
Its very upsetting to see the way we communicate with one another, where is the love people? These are serious issues for both sikhs and americans I dont think it helps to be impolite to one another because the discussion does not acheive anything and what we need to acheive is mutual understanding. So far this debate has reached an impasse beyond which the focus has been shifted to maligning one anothers faiths, that is not a virtue of the religious faithfull. Politics is changing rapidly, you cannot reverse societal attitude only elevate it to a higher consciousness through knowledge so everyone should be open to learning, and sikh means learner so you should all convert lol.
But seriously lets have more empathy,
A sikh
01 20 06
Hey there! This is an excellent post. This question came up about ten years ago not too far from the town where I live. Some Sikh families sued the school district for suspending their kids for wearing the kirpans and wouldn’t allow them back unless they didn’t wear them. The school board stood by their decision and used much of the same reasoning that you cited. Ultimately a right isn’t protected if it can cause harm or does cause harm to another. Now divining intent is one thing, but lets face it, a knife is a knife. I find it so very [edited] up (pardon the language) that the ACLU supports satanists yet advocates for cities to remove Christian CROSSES from their city seal. Now they are advocating for a Sikh to be able to brandish a weapon for the sake of his religion? This makes no sense. And the dagger is strictly ceremonial, which means that if it were symbolically made of plastic or whatever else it would be okay. When we live in a pluralistic society we all have to make some compromises and it is high time, we made immigrants conform to our standards, as we would living in one of their countries. The ACLU is acting poisonous and sending mixed messages at best. I don’t get them, but those commies have truly boiled my blood. Thanks for getting out the word and staying real!
01 20 06
And I appreciate the dialog between you all and the Sikh visitors. I am saddened that some people are so intolerant. The reason why I am not comfortable with the kirpan being worn in public schools is that despite the bluntness of the object it CAN be used as a weapon. And someone pointed out that it is a SYMBOL of the dagger to squash oppression, well it is a living embodiment of a weapon and to me, the likeness is too similar. Just as we cannot predict what another will do, at school suppose somone gets into a fight are you saying that the kirpan couldn’t be used by someone else (as a weapon) if it was dropped? Frankly some of the discussions on the history of the kirpan are beautiful, but the authors are still failing to see that this non weapon-weapon is not acceptable by the greater groups in our society, and especially not to be worn in public schools.
We do live in a wonderful and diverse society, but we cannot all coexist and practice all of our beliefs without society being affected. That is why the Establishment Clause exists.
Jay you outdid yourself on this one and so did the commenters. Happy New Year guys!
LOL, this has set a new record for comments for me. One thing learned here is that even though the sikhs who commented here swore they were peace loving based on their comments if you tried to take away their kirpans they would use them as pot-stickers. I think that in itself speaks volumes about why I wrote this piece in the first place.
“When we live in a pluralistic society we all have to make some compromises and it is high time, we made immigrants conform to our standards, as we would living in one of their countries. ”
I’m not an immigrant. This is my country.
Singhster,
“The practice of Sikhs carrying the Kirpan as a religious symbol can be traced back to the lifetime of the sixth Sikh prophet, Guru Hargobind (1595-1644)”
Singh,
“Kirpans also cannot be worn as symbols, so plastic would be unacceptable.”
There seems to be a piece of information missing here or someone is being less than honest.
Which is it?
Outward symbols are an inner motivation, and it is not a ceromonial only dagger it is to be kept on us at all times, If it wasnt for us the whole of the east would be muslim today, Iraq would be the least of your problems. Anyhow as I am from the UK and do not know squat about USA and its policies I am happy that we have been once again victorious and who knows one day we may even be allowed to carry all of our holy shasters.
We don’t ask for respect we command it,
Gurfateh!
A sikh
“We don’t ask for respect we command it,”
Command! That may work in the UK, but you come over here commanding anything, you had better have more than a ‘knife’ on your hip!
“you had better have more than a ‘knife’ on your hip! ”
Evidently not, read the story we won the right, the rest is left for losers like you to stew over.
Have a nice day
A sikh
“we won the right,”
Good luck with that!
Bring that ’story’, ‘right’ and ‘pigsticker’ down here and command all you want!
“Bring that ’story’, ‘right’ and ‘pigsticker’ down here and command all you want! ”
We already are, your just a lost voice in the wildrness and with time people like you will initially become the scourge of society then vanish into non-existence, hell you are not even given a platform you use your blog as a leverage to spurn others but your the biggest ridicule, a mouth which barks without a brain – so you will here nought from me anymore I will let the kirpan do all the talking.
With the flash of a sabre….thud,
A sikh
“I will let the kirpan do all the talking.”
“With the flash of a sabre….thud,”
See, it doesn’t really take much prodding to cut through the crap and get to the truth, now does it?
I know your just trying to get me to respond because I said I would not and you have too much freetime because no-one wants to talk to you on your blogspot but I thought I would give you a quote our guru made with respect to your last statement of getting to the truth:
“Chu Kar Az huma hiltay dar guzhast
Halal Ast Burdan ba shamsheer dast.
Only when all other efforts of reconciliation fail is it righteous to wield the Sword”
So no, we have been more than polite and forthcoming, when will you see the error in your ways we are not going to stick around to find out, it is something you need to resolve within yourself.
A sikh
“We already are, your just a lost voice in the wildrness and with time people like you will initially become the scourge of society then vanish into non-existence, hell you are not even given a platform you use your blog as a leverage to spurn others but your the biggest ridicule, a mouth which barks without a brain – so you will here nought from me anymore I will let the kirpan do all the talking.”
Oh JHC, listen to the fools who think they are superior to the rest of the human race because they are entitled to hold a weapon as a right of what baptism(?), birth (?), initiation (?) or whatever they want to call it. And not by a God, but merely by a human who thought he was superior to the rest of mankind when he thought up this sh**. If you want a holy war keep it up wiseguys, cause that is what you are gonna get. Just because you are holding a knife doesn’t mean that you will get the drop on anybody, because you are sikhs and are “peaceful”. Obviously, based on your spiteful comments you believe that pot-sticker (yes I will call it a pot-sticker cause that is what you intend to do with it) will entitle you to the luxury of carrying a weapon while the rest of world can not. And based also on your comments (are you speaking for the rest of your kind?) we will be forewarned of your intentions. You have left no doubt in that.
Who said we’re better? And sikhs don’t have “holy wars”…whatever that means. I wasn’t going to say anything but you called my cherished belief sh**. This was not thought up out of superiority. Our guruji gave us an identity so that the world would understand that this person is a sikh, and as a sikh anyone can approach him or her for help. We have this identity so that we will stand out in a crowd and not blend in. If you don’t believe me or what I believe in then don’t but please don’t insult me. We have not put down any of your religious beliefs and we wont because our religion doesn’t teach us that one religion is better than another. BTW when you say “A God” you seem to be implying there’s more than one? WE dont believe that. Everyone believes in the same God they just have their own way to it. You can imply that I’m going to hell or whatever (we don’t believe in that either) but don’t insult my beliefs.
“A great fantasy has been created and no one could understand its mystery.
They asked Baba Nanak to search in his book whether Hindu is great or the Muslim.
Baba replied to the pilgrim hajis, that, without good deeds both will have to weep and wail.
One cannot be accepted in the Court of God just by being a certain religion.” – Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Pannaa 1
Kathy, get to know a few Sikhs, why don’t you. Maybe then your distaste for us might disappear?