Comments on: Gay Rights – Romero’s Focus for the ACLU

By: Gribbit

Gribbit — Fri, 30 Dec 2005 01:16:44 +0000

It seems that we are still fielding “debate” on this issue. “Debate”, the use of that term in this context is humorous. Since a debate cannot be done here. No one is capable of changing the minds of others. Those who disagree enough to actually attempt to make a logical rebuttal to the thread are also stubborn enough in their beliefs to never be swayed.

Apostle is correct in his/her observations to Brian’s insistence that a theory can be both theory and fact. A theory by definition is an unproven hypothesis.

But I must remind everyone, that valid links are required to comment on my posts. I have not been keeping up with this thread as attentively as I should, but let it be known, that from this point forward, if you leave a comment and no VALID corresponding link, it will be deleted without response and your IP will be added to the blacklist. This goes for comments pro and con.

This restriction only applies to threads authored by Gribbit. I’ll let the others police their own postings.

By: apostle

apostle — Sat, 24 Dec 2005 08:46:45 +0000

Its like trying to educate a fern plant. No, there is not this vast amount of evidence to support evolution. It is a theory because it has never been observed, science being something we’ve observed. We have never observed man evolving from apes. It is also interesting that apes don’t continue to evolve. Yes, I do know the difference between what is legal and what is moral. Apparently you don’t. Trampling on religious rights in the name of “tolerance” is illegal and un-Constitutional. Those kids who are unfortunate enough to have limited home income have no choice but to be indocrinated with garbage that is full of too many holes. You call these holes evidence. I call it stupidity. The fact that Holt science text books used in public schools read “4.2 billion years ago, there was nothing. Then there was an explosion.” Later we find out from the same science that it is impossible for nothing to explode. You say its a fact that we have evolved from apes, which is funny because scientists have not even come close to proving it, save holding up two skulls and concluding they are similiar. You must have information that they don’t.

You are right that homosexuals have Constitutionally protected rights, and I agree that they should not be harassed in any way. However, that same Constitution makes public education in itself UNCONSTITUTIONAL. No where in the powers, limits, or responsibilities of any branch of government does it read they are required to educate its citizens. In any event, it is also illegal to teach theory as fact as we established. You claim evolution is fact, a fact being something that cannot be refuted. This means you have some undisputable evidence that evolutionist quack scientists don’t. Perhaps you can share.

As to your remarks regarding common sense, you are saying we as humans are incapable of choosing our sexual preference. That means that pedophiles, who prefere underage children, are helpless in this desire. Despite the fact that they harm others this means that they should not be imprisoned. Unless of course, you think they should be imprisoned though they clearly have no say in the matter.

By: Brian

Brian — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 07:14:49 +0000

Apostle,

It’s pointless discussing evolution with you because you don’t even understand what a scientific theory is. The Theory of Relativity is also scientific theory and it is a fact. It is a fact the E=MC squared. Just because the Theory of Relativity is a scientific theory does not mean it’s not a fact and just because the Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory does not mean it’s not a fact.

There is so much evidence supporting evolution that it is considered a fact by the scientific community.

You also don’t understand the difference between “moral” and “legal”. Everyone has their own opinion of what is or isn’t moral but not what is or isn’t legal.

In the United States, the Constitution takes precedence over what the majority wants. Homosexuals have Constitutional rights regardless of what the majority wants.

Anyone with common sense knows homosexuality is not a choice. Why would anyone choose to become a homosexual? Why would animals choose to become homosexuals? The only reason I can think of why someone would think homosexuality is a choice is because they find both men and women to be equally attractive. Maybe you find men and women to be equally to attractive sexually but I don’t. I am only sexually attracted to women. I did not choose this. I was born this way.

By: apostle

apostle — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 06:23:18 +0000

“The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory.”

Then you say

“It’s a fact that plants and animals evolve and it’s a fact that man evolved from an ape-like creature.”

So in two sentences evolution went from being a theory to a fact. Sorry to burst your bubble genius, but neither of your claims can be proven, which is why world-reknown scientists call it a THEORY. Get a dictionary and find the definition of the word “theory.”

“People have the ability to decide what is moral and what isn’t.”

Well then there you have it. People have decided. We’re run by a majority and you have nothing to complain about. Not to mention the fact that since everyone can decide for themselves what is immoral, then there is no need for a government, law, and order. Someone has to decide these things. If its the majority than you lose. If its everyone for themselves than you lose. If its the government you or someone else loses. By your own logic, there is nothing to debate. Once again, homosexuality has never been proven to be anything but a choice, though many quacks try. I’m the Christian, yet you are the one making strong claims that need demonstrating. Funny how the tables turn.

By: Brian

Brian — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 05:01:52 +0000

Apostle,

Killing homosexuals has nothing to do with establishing law and order. Any decent person would agree that killing them is wrong.

In the Bible, beating slaves is okay as long as the slave is able to get up after one or two days. You don’t consider beating a slave so badly that he can’t get up until after one or two days to be mistreating him?

The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory. A scientific theory is an explanation of a phenomenon. It has nothing to do with whether or not the phenomenon is a fact. It’s a fact that plants and animals evolve and it’s a fact that man evolved from an ape-like creature.

The fact that we evolved from an ape-like creature has nothing to do with whether or not there is immorality. People have the ability to think and decide what is moral and what isn’t. It has nothing to do with where the first humans came from. It is strictly a person’s opinion of whether or not something is immoral. It is probably your opinion that practicing homosexuality is immoral. In my opinion it isn’t.

By: Scott

Scott — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 14:43:06 +0000

“Do they know that the communists in Russia killed homosexuals?”

You mean, does Gribbit know?

Read the full story of “Gay Communists and the War on Christmas,” at:

http://www.aclutx.org/libertyblog.php?e=125

And Merry Christmas, happy holidays, etc., etc., to you all.

By: apostle

apostle — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:33:03 +0000

How very intelligent of you Brian, but you left out a few things:
1.) Killing homosexuals and other violators of the law is a practice that established order and law to a leaderless nation. Killing them couldn’t be wrong anyway in a land of humans whose morals are dictated by cultural relativity.
2,) Killing homosexuals and other violators of the law is a practice the Bible later nullified through the teachings of Jesus.
3.) Slavery in the Hebrew culture is not the same as slavery as liberals would like to make people believe. An objective and simple attempt at research tells us that slavery did not last more than 7 years, slaves were PAID, and never mistreated.
4.) Though many public schools require students to learn evolution, this does not make it legal. Public education itself is illegal, as it is unConstitutional. It is not the job of the government, nor does the Constitution say otherwise.
5.) It is illegal to teach students theory as fact. Evolution is a theory.
6.) It is NOT illegal to teach Creation, which is why the original plan for education as written by Ben Franklin called for the “necessity of a public religion, and the excellance of Christianity above all others.” Or Thomas Paine (not a Christian) who added the notion that science, not a Creator, should be taught as theology. There is not law preventing schools from teaching about God at all. The only law pertaining to religion is the establishment clause, which only states simply that the government cannot make or establish religion into law.
7.) Teaching kids they are evolved from apes nullifys your entire argument, as using words like “decent” when describing society is a contradiction. If we teach kids they are all biological accidents than there is no such thing as immorality, making cruel treatment of gays perfectly natural. There is no such thing as good or evil, decent or indecent, without moral responsibility, no moral responsibility without moral law, no moral law without a moral law giver.
8.) To say that no decent society today would base its law on the Bible is to say that you live in an indecent society, as our laws and Constitution are clearly based on the Bible.
9.) We do not live in a society where policy is dictated by a minority. In a Republican government such as this, something our Constitution guarnatees our states, the majority decides such things. The majority does not want their kids to be indoctrinated with this crap, and we’ve also seen nation wide voting that overwhelmingly voted against gay and lesbian marriages, though some states refused to represent their contstituents.
10.) You nor any doctor or scientist in the world have proven that homosexuals are born that way.
11.) Homosexuals do have the right to go to school without being harassed, as do Christians, who should be able to wear Christian clothing without having their freedom of religious expression stomped on. Yet another reason why the public education system does not work, takes away freedoms, and wastes tax payers money.
12.) If schooling is to be paid for by the government, than its curriculumn should be represented by the government in power, which represents the majority.
13.) No decent society or parent would teach their kids that they are biological accidents that have no purpose in life.
14.) No decent parent or society would allow their kids to be taught things like “4.2 billion years ago, there was nothing. Then it exploded…” and still feel their child is recieving a decent education.
15.) If we have evolved from apes than ape-like behavior should be considered “decent” in your world, which means forcing sex on another is perfectly acceptable, as is poligamy, and bashing anyone within 50 yards of my territory with a rock.
16.) Liberals who find killing or harming homosexuals morally reprehensible must now prove why this is morally reprehensible, without a higher moral law giver. Unless you are going to argue that the concept of right and wrong is something every human is born with, an idea easily refuted as everyone believes in a different code of moral conduct.
17.) If homosexuals are born that way, and simply can’t help their desires, than a person’s desire to harass them is also genetic and therefore cannot be condemned. If homosexuality is a natural biological funtion, than rape, child molestation, and other sexual acts can be sexual preferences genetic in some humans, and is seen in different species of animals as well, and so also could not be condemned. Pedophiles were born that way, whether this harms another or not. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
18.) It is strangley hypocritical to find mistreatment of homosexuals as wrong while innocent babies are killed in their mothers’ womb. The only response to this from the left is “freedom of choice.”

By: Brian

Brian — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 06:37:22 +0000

Homosexual activity is normal and natural for people and animals that are born that way.

Homosexuals have the right to go to school without being harassed.

The Bible is nothing more than the writings of very backward, superstitious nomads. No decent society today would base its laws on the Bible. According to the Bible, homosexuals should be put to death. Not only that, but women who lose their virginity before marriage should be put to death. Anyone who curses their mother or father should be put to death. Blasphemers should be put to death. In the Bible, owning slaves is completely acceptable and so is beating them, as long as you don’t kill the slave.

There are no laws against teaching students something that is contrary to their religious beliefs in public schools. Students in many public schools are required to learn about evolution regardless of what their religious beliefs are. Not only that, according to the law it is illegal to follow some of the commandments in the Bible about homosexuals. As I mentioned before, the Bible says homosexuals should be put to death. If anyone were to obey this commandment, they would end getting sent to prison or possibly even put to death themself if the state was able to prove that they followed this commandment.

By: apostle

apostle — Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:06:20 +0000

Another classic example as to why our Constitution doesn’t protect the public education system, and why our founding fathers opposed it. Someone is going to have their rights trampled on. Liberals claim to be pro-choice, and to look out for the poor man. Problem with that is that poor people who can’t afford another form of school but don’t want their kids being indoctrinated with this crap have NO CHOICE. Public education is totally unConstitutional in this country.

By: The Uncooperative Blogger

The Uncooperative Blogger — Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:27:03 +0000

Mexico angrily vows to block proposed U.S. border wall
From an article in Mercury News:
The Mexican government, angered by a U.S. proposal to extend a wall along the border to keep out migrants, pledged Tuesday to block the plan and organize an international campaign against it.
Facing a growing tide of…