War Against CHRISTmas taken to Whole New Level
Posted on December 10, 2005
Brian Fleming, a former Christian now turned athieist / anti-Christian bigot, has launched an all out attack on Christmas, and Christianity. In a news release issued December 5th fleming states, “Beyond Belief Media has formally declared war on Christmas, the December 25 holiday in which Christians celebrate the birth of the mythical figure Jesus Christ”, and, “”Christian conservatives complain nonstop about the ‘War on Christmas,’ but there really isn’t any such war,”. He also states “So we have decided to wage one, to demonstrate what it would look like if Jesus’ birthday were truly attacked”.
In my humble opinion, this dillusional pinnhead has another thing coming, history provides adequate proof of the existence of Jesus Christ, anyone that denies this fact has not done thier homework, but has only made a conscious choice to deny Christ, and deny historical fact. This is one of the most blatant attacks of the faith I have seen yet, and this attack was launched to anger Christians, and to do so on purpose. While Brian Fleming has the right to his own opinions, and has the right to speak them in public, he should not be able to do so without strong opposition, and that is what we are going to give him!
Check out these webpages:
http://www.creatingfutures.net/birth.htm
http://members.cox.net/cdwiner/historical_proof.htm
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm
All I can say about Mr. Fleming and his group of Christ hating bigots is that they have proven thier own personal ingnorance, and arrogance as liberals often do. Chances are that Brian Fleming was never truly saved to begin with, he probably has a mere religious experience, and was a product of the “modernized gospel” that leaves out the need for true repentance before God, and produces false converts, instead of soundly saved converts.
Here is what the Scripture declares about people like Mr. Fleming!
2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13. And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14. Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15. Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16. But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
“the latter end is worse with them than the beggining”
2 Peter 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
I would suggest sending Mr. Fleming a Christmas card via the web,
http://www.123christians.com/christians/christmas/cards/index1.html
Here is his email address!
vagrant@slumdance.com
And Here is the link to his blog!
http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/
If Mr. Fleming gets upset with the response he recieves, too bad! He started it
CrossPosted From www.protesttheleft.blogspot.com
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24 Responses to “War Against CHRISTmas taken to Whole New Level”
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“’Christian conservatives complain nonstop about the War on Christmas, but there really isn’t any such war,’. He also states ‘So we have decided to wage one, to demonstrate what it would look like if Jesus’ birthday were truly attacked’”.
See? Told you so. When will the nutzos on the far right grasp the fact that practically everything they complain about is either a straw man or a beast of their own creation? Given the lack-of-education and gullibility factors, probably not anytime soon.
“In my humble opinion, this dillusional pinnhead has another thing coming…”
That’s not a humble opinion at all; it’s absolutely self-righteous and narcissistic to claim that *your* imaginary god is superior to the rest of the world’s imaginary gods, and to imply that this guy is going to suffer for all eternity for having the sense to think critically and require evidence for his beliefs. Recovering Christians are hard to find, so give this guy credit — he beat some serious odds in becoming deprogrammed. (And please — calling someone dumb using the phrase “dillusional pinhead [sic]” isn’t going to gain you much except laughs.)
“history provides adequate proof of the existence of Jesus Christ,”
No it doesn’t. He may well have lived, but proof? My arse. There’s no secular history of Jesus at all and there were dozens of such historians in the area he supposedly lived, when he supposedly lived. The Gospel writers never knew him and Paul obviously invented most of what he wrote to suit. I don’t know why I’m arguing this with someone who has at least 300 equally untenable beliefs to go with this one, though.
“anyone that denies this fact has not done thier homework, but has only made a conscious choice to deny Christ, and deny historical fact.”
Right. Call Christ existence a “fact” enough times and lo and behold, the missing evidence for this magically appears! Nice try.
Besides, isn’t the important thing not Jesus’ existence but his supposed resurrection? I guess there’s ample historical evidence for this, too?
“This is one of the most blatant attacks of the faith I have seen yet”
Well, you’re perceptive.
Despite the crippled nature of your post as a whole, I’m still a little surprised you tried to defend Christ using scripture. You’ve obviously never heard of circular reasoning.
My post isn’t crippled, your brain is! Just because you choose not to believe, don’t put that off on us, that’s your problem!
This Fleming fellow is a hater of God and Christ and his followers as you are also, look at history for yourself! or is your mind too closed up to see the real truth?
Lee Strobel was an atheist until he took an open and honest look at the facts, it changed his life forever.
http://www.zondervanchurchsource.com/instrobel.htm
There are many others as well,
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/testimonies/
“My post isn’t crippled, your brain is! Just because you choose not to believe, don’t put that off on us, that’s your problem!”
Sorry, pipe-dreamer. No one “chooses” not to believe. Atheism isn’t something people actively strive for, unlike religious fervor. It’s nothing more than the resistance people rightfully offer to a nation full of wall-eyed, deluded suckers who can offer no justification for their ecclesiatical claims, thereby forcing them to abandon all attempts at logic and reason and hide behind the polar opposite of rationality — “faith.”
As far as the existence of religious believers is concerned, who cares? This is supposed to provide evidence of something? I’m well aware that people believe all sorts of dumb things. (Just lookarouind this “place.”) Faith is a feeling, nothing more. If I believed there was a million dollars’ worth of gold bricks buried in my yard I’m sure I’d feel great about it, but if I kept digging and digging, smiling all the while and claiming it won’t be long until I find my treasure, people would obviously try to counsel me or perhaps have me Baker acted.
The whole godthing idea would be funny if it weren’t for idiots’ coupling their belief with trying to impose all of its asinine tenets on others, or turn them into law.
I’m a recovered Southern Baptist. I got deprogrammed. It was tough; years of bigotry and ignorance are hard to overcome. But I think freely now and feel that the attack on Christmas is ratings-inspired lie. All one has to do is drag the ACLU into it (though a Google news search turns up zero ACLU vs. Christmas stories) and say it often enough and these poor sheep will follow. After I left the church, I was quite angry at organized religion for a while, but I feel sorry for these people now.
dayve
“There’s no secular history of Jesus at all and there were dozens of such historians in the area he supposedly lived, when he supposedly lived. The Gospel writers never knew him and Paul obviously invented most of what he wrote to suit.”
Josephus, Tacitus, and of course Luke wrote about the Christ (aside from Paul, Matthew, John, and Mark – oh, and James, too). Joesphus and Tacitus were, of course, secular, and Luke (who wrote the Gospel and the book of Acts) is regarded as one of the finest historians of the ancient world.
However, no, you won’t find much extra-biblical mentions of Jesus. It wouldn’t be logical to do so: for Rome, He was simply a small detail in a pile of paperwork from some backwater country. The Romans weren’t that interested in Him, since they regarded Him as another criminal who had been executed. Remember as well, that this is 2,000 years ago – most of the documentary (written) evidence of that age is non-existant, anyway.
Nevertheless, there is an incredible amount of documentary evidence for the accuracy of the New Testament and for the extremely narrow gap between Jesus’ death and the original manuscripts – on the order of, perhaps, 20 years or less. The NT itself has something like 5,000 or more existing manuscripts (and I’m erring on the LOW side), which have been poured over, examined and discussed for many centuries.
BV, I would suggest that you check out the resoned arguments on the “other side” (I’d suggest starting with “Evidence that Demands a Verdict,” by Josh MacDowell to start) before you toss statements like “no evidence” around. Brighter minds than yours have attempted to discredit the documentry evidence and failed.
Frankly, you’re so hostile to the whole body of evidence anyway, that I doubt you’ll go do the research. That’s fine. The Bible has stood for thousands of years, and it will – should the Lord tarry – stand for thousands more. Men like you have been broken by it before, I’ve no doubt you’ll merely be another statistic.
Oh, and as for “No one chooses not to believe,” well, God’s already got your number… Read Romans 1.
And now from Ecclesiastes,
“No one “chooses” not to believe. Atheism isn’t something people actively strive for”
OK good point! Hostility and hatered of God is of course mans natural state, That is why God refers to people like you this way:
Romans 1: 21-22. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Be carefull what you say about faith, because athiests/humanists beliefs dwell on faith also.
It is NOT our fault if you and Dayve became disillusioned with religion and turned and ran away like little crying babies. Obviously you two were never truly converted. When times got tough you couldn’t handle it, got angry at religion, and left out for the anti-relgion religion. Instead of worshiping the one true God, you have chosen to make yourselves your own God. You think of yourselves as free of the bondage of religion, but you have only chosen to become the slaves of rebellion and unbelief, the tools of Satan.
[DELETED]
BV has left the building!
GOD DOESN’T BELIEVE IN ATHEISTS!
You are a fool who thinks he is wise, yet you are a dillusional fool! You have decided there is no God, but you cannot prove that he does not exist. History proves that Jesus of Nazareth lived on this earth, yet you in your willfull ignorance refuse to believe, that is your choice. How dare you force your religion on us by denying us our freedom!
It takes more effort to believe than not to believe, athieism is for lazy stupid people!
You probabally think of yourself as a good person? I would love to question you on that sometime to see if thats true or not!
Christianity takes many forms.
There is one form, the kind that loudly proclaims its faith like a gaudy medallion. These Christians would be first in line to hammer Jesus back up on the cross if he ever came back.
Then there are the quiet humble ones who actually pay attention to what Jesus said.
Real Christians.
Ignore the loud self-righteous ones.
Actully, if you read the Scriptures properly, Christ told his followers to preach the gospel everywhere, and he said to be salt and light
There is only one true form of Christianity, that is faith in the finished work of Christ! There is a false relgion that pretends to be Christian, and thier is true Christianity that is Biblical Christianity!
The Bible say’s to have an answer ready all the time for your faith, do you have an answer for the commie trolls??
I’m always amazed at those who, by attacking the faith of others (regardless of the others faith) is their only way to justify their lack of faith. Pity! On the other hand, small pleasures satisfy small minds.
Quoting the Bible in one hand while sinning with the other? Acting better than others simply because you think you’re right, and using the Bible to back up your argument is extremely idiotic. I’m certain the Bible preaches love for thy neighbor and the sick. Calling someone a “dillusional pinnhead” isn’t love.
It is true that this guy didn’t do his homework, it’s common knowledge among historians that Jesus was documented outside of the bible.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/jesusaccount.html
BTW I’m not a Christian and I completely agree that this is guy is a delusional pinhead.
Liberals are complete fools for believing that by attacking Christianity they will usher in an era of liberal utopia. They should really consider that they will also usher in people that have no faith in “liberalism” and have absolutely no moral compunctions either. Liberals really don’t think things through.
But they’ll keep pushing, which will bring on the amoral, atheist right-wingers. Have fun dealing with those guys.
I think the best part of this post and comments is comment #7.
You poor sheep. You’re being used by a Republican Party that really only cares about the rich. They don’t give a damn about you poor white trash Christians.
Someone called me a “tool of Satan”? Someone who doesn’t even know me? Wow.
Face it: there is no God, George Bush is a moron and the ACLU is more Christ-like than most Christians.
dayve
Wow, there are some very unhappy and threatened christians out there. I guess that little voice in their head that tells them its all bull[edited] won’t shut up so they have to scream really load to block it out
“but I have done my homework here and there is no extrabiblical support for the Jesus of the Bible, as theologians even allow…I could offer evidence but no one here cares…”
I already provided evidence to the contrary and you haven’t responded.
[i]Two surviving non-Christian accounts, one by Roman historian and another by a Jewish historian, confirm that Pilate ordered the execution of Jesus[/i]
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/jesusaccount.html
There is another option to consider outside of the whole Jesus was real/Jesus wasn’t real manichean dualism.
Despite my unrepentant atheism, I have no problem with the historical record for Jesus suggesting he was a real person.
However, I rejoin the ‘God who wasn’t there’ crowd, in that I deny the ‘divinity’ of Jesus and his miracles.
Did he exist? Probably, yes. Did the Romans kill him? Again, probably yes (the Romans killed lots of people, and Jesus would have been nothing special to them in that regard).
Did he rise from the dead? Was he the son of God? Born of virgin? Turn water into wine?
Uh, no.
Antiphon
[i]Two surviving non-Christian accounts, one by Roman historian and another by a Jewish historian, confirm that Pilate ordered the execution of Jesus[/i]
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/jesusaccount.html
I don really see how the hundred year old hearsay you cited as evidence proves anything other than that some people (probably early christians) were propagating such myths. Can you explain how it definative proof of anything else?
Man, this bulldozetheaclu idiot is really truly delusional. You need professional help. Seriiously, if the alledged love of this “god” of yours leads you to a life of so much hostility and anger towards those who do not believe as you do then you are doomed to live a life of hate.
Me, I’m happy where I am in life. No god, no [edited], just the wonder and mystery of existance in the universe. Halleluja!
And thanks to the aclu too!
TYruly it is those who is thier arrogance, willful ignorance, and hatred of the truth of God, waste thier lives persecuting God’s people.
Ever heard of “Righteous Indignance” Mr F? that is “righteous anger” agaisnt evil?
God gets angry, it’s all through the Scripture where God got angry with his people and punished them for thier disobiedience.
I have to laugh every time some liberal wiener accuses me of hate, ignorance, and/or intollerance. Mr. F’s comment is typical, and laughable as he has no frickin’ idea what he is talking about as most commmies don’t!
U.S. Christmas History
Christmas was not initially recognized by the U.S. government because it was considered to be too pagan. In his book “The Battle for Christmas,” Stephen Nissembaum notes that at first, before the U.S. had an established national government, Christmas was opposed by many local governments, such as those in New England:
“In New England, for the first two centuries of white settlement most
people did not celebrate Christmas. In fact, the holiday was
systematically suppressed by the Puritans during the colonial period and largely ignored by their descendants. It was actually illegal to celebrate Christmas in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681 (the fine was five shillings). Only in the middle of the nineteenth century did Christmas gain legal recognition as an official public holiday in New England”.
Nissembaum also notes that “most of the other states” did not “grant
legal recognition to Christmas until the middle of the nineteenth
century”.
Nissembaum then explains why there was such opposition to celebrating
Christmas at the time:
“Why? What accounts for this strange hostility? The Puritans themselves had a plain reason for what they tried to do, and it happened to be a perfectly good one: There is no biblical or historical reason to place the birth of Jesus on December 25″.
Nissembaum writes that the Puritans were quick to point out a related
reason for objecting to Christmas celebrations:
“Christmas was nothing but a pagan festival covered with a Christian
veneer. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston, for example, accurately observed in 1687 that the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so ‘thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed
into Christian [ones]‘”.
Part of the reason Christmas was not always celebrated by certain religious groups such as the Puritans until the 19th century was because of what many people deemed its underlying pagan roots. The opposition to Christmas was not universal, however. In his book “The American Christmas: A Study in National Culture,” James H. Barnett notes:
“Few American are aware that large groups of colonists objected to Christmas during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Many loathed it as an ‘abomination’ even though others observed the occasion as a religious feast. In general, Puritans, Baptists, Presbyterians, and Quakers strongly opposed the religious observance of Christmas, but members of the Church of England, the Dutch Reformed, Lutheran, and Roman Catholic churches, as well as the German sects, carefully followed their
traditional celebrations. Religious, ethnic, and national ties were intermixed in defining attitudes toward the festival”.
The federal government first declared Christmas a federal holiday. Restad writes that in June 1870:
“For the first time in its history, the United States Congress declared
Christmas a federal holiday. Although the act’s stated purpose was the regulation of fiscal matters on several holidays, the law nonetheless formally endorsed the importance of a holiday that had been developing in the homes and sensibilities of the nation’s citizenry for half a century”.
Also, a 1999 Congressional Research Service Report, “Federal Holidays:
Evolution and Application,” notes on page one that this act was passed on June 28, 1870. You can find this report online in PDF format on the U.S. Senate website at:
http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/Federal_Holidays.pdf
You can view full text of the act online through the Library’s American Memory collection “A Century of Lawmaking” at:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=016/llsl016.db&recNum=203
Enjoy the holidays!
Free Bird stated”One cannot hate something that they do NOT believe in”
NO! They are rebellious towards a holy and righteous God, and choose to reject his truth, therefore they hate God , Christ, and the Bible and anything else having to do with the Christian faith.
Free Bird wrote “- LOL, all of the gospels were anonymous. Nobody knew who wrote them until the public announcement by the Pope in 180. Turns out that even “Revelation” was plagiarized from some 4,000 year old texts as it relates to the Mithraic legend of Zarathustra/Zoroaster.”
The Gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Anyone who suggest that the Gospel authors were originally unknown and were later given authors is suggesting that the Gospels were read for about 70 years, circulated, accepted by the church as authoritative throughout the entire Roman Empire, and changed the course of human history before someone finally said, “You know, we really ought to name these books.” That just isn’t plausible.
The Bible’s writers–even over such a long period of time–all convey the same basic message: the God who created the heavens and the earth has provided a way for people to know Him in a personal way.
The Bible was written by several different men under the direct inspiration of God, they often bear the name of the author, and many are letters written to other groups of believers to instructing them in the faith. Free Birds statement is what is Laughable, it is just another attempt to discredit the book and the message that has outlasted far more brutal attacks than the one free bird in launching here.
One fellow named Voltaire was an atheist who attacked the scripture and the Christian faith, he stated “It took centuries to build up Christianity, but, I’ll show how one Frenchman can destroy it within 50 years.” Then as one author wrote, “He took his pen, dipped it into the ink of unbelief and wrote against God.“. As Voltaire laid upon his deathbed, drawing his last few breaths of air he cried out “O Christ, O Jesus, I must die abandoned by God and men.”, and then he died. His estate was purchased by a group of Christians and used to print Bibles, how ironic is that? On his deathbed Voltaire realized just how wrong he was, and cried out to the God he had persecuted for so long, Voltaire died without Christ however, a very sad story indeed.
Free Bird continues his anti-God rant “There are no primary sources for the existance of the historical Jesus of the bible. “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof”; yet, no proof of any kind for the historicity of Jesus has ever existed or is forthcoming. First, Free Bird spelled existence wrong! Secondly, that is a very unintelligent, uninformed statement to make. We have literary proof outside of the Bible written in the first and second centuries. We have three major world religions that all reference and bear witness to the proof of the Historical figure, Jesus of Nazareth, anyone who fails to at least acknowledge this truth is willfully blind to the historical facts that exist. Satan worshippers also know full well that Jesus is real, and they fear him and his words. The very fact that so many people down through history have brutally attacked Jesus and Christianity, stands as proof alone that this is not a myth, or something made up, but very real person with a message of hope the devil does not want them to hear.
There are extra biblical sources that exist, they are testimonies located outside of Scripture, and these testimonies support the Biblical historical evidence.
Amazing evidence from non-canonical documents.
The proof is out there, the question is will people dare to see it, or take the lazy road and continue to live is dishonest denial of the proof. The fact is that we do not have time to waste arguing with dishonest atheistic fools who in their so-called intellectual mind cannot fathom the existence of God or Christ. The truth is these people are not intellectuals at all, but lazy foolish men/women who when presented with the truth, are too blind and deaf to acknowledge the facts.
http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus1.htm” target=”_blank”>Now Skeptics will often charge “you cannot prove that Jesus really existed…” But wait! This is not the believer’s burden to prove!
JESUS-MYTHERS: WHY THEY ARE NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY
There is just too much proof out there to post it all, and it is not my job to prove anything to infidels who viciously attack my faith and values so that they can institute their own atheistic theocracy here in America. The fact is that Jesus was a real historical person who lived on this earth, the real question for the infidel is, was Jesus really the Son of God? I believe he was indeed, and will not be moved from the rock I am fixed upon because that rock is the rock of salvation, Jesus Christ!
God Bless You!!
Nutcase (bulldozetheaclu) “The Gospels were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.”
- They were all anonymous until around 180. Still, The gospel of Mark describes the first written Bible gospel. And although Mark appears deceptively after the Matthew gospel, the unknown author of Mark wrote it at least a generation before Matthew. From its own words, we can deduce that the author of Mark had neither heard Jesus nor served as his personal follower. Whoever wrote this gospel, he simply accepted the mythology of Jesus without question and wrote a crude an ungrammatical account of the popular story at the time. Any careful reading of the three Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) will reveal that Mark served as the common element between Matthew and Luke and gave the main source for both of them. Of Mark’s 666 verses, some 600 appear in Matthew, some 300 in Luke. According to Randel Helms, the author of Mark, stands at least at a third remove from Jesus and more likely at the fourth remove.
nutcase “The Bible was written by several different men under the direct inspiration of God.”
- Then, god should’ve chosen to use a language that wasn’t soon to be obsolete.
n.c. “The proof is out there, the question is will people dare to see it, or take the lazy road and continue to live is dishonest denial of the proof.”
- Every single shred of your so-called ‘proof’ has been debunked long before you were ever born.
“What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!” ~ Pope Leo X
* From the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA:
“Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each
month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed ashis birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season.”
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm
** Notice the word “REBIRTH,” which means that the sun was perceived to have died. Sound familiar?
YOU WORSHIP THE SUN & DON’T EVEN KNOW IT. You provided the link that proves at the top – Thanks for that.
LOL