Question For Liberals
Do you want a society completely devoid of right and wrong, where all are free to do whatever they wish? Is this your definition of liberty? A society that does not punish people for their actions? A government that completely takes care of every need? A government of entitlement and dependency?
If you think my questions exaggerate your positions on society, please leave a short descripition of the utopia you wish America was. I don’t even know how many liberals visit my site anymore, but conservatives…don’t answer for them. Allow them to answer before debating.
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Posted by Jay on September 15, 2005 8:40 pm
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16 Responses to “Question For Liberals”
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Syndicate Me
“Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made.” -
But we do live in a society where people are not ounished for their actions. Look at Bush himself, his assiciates, who have not been ounished for all their lies and evil.
Money is not the ultimate goal. Neither is walking on streets paved with gold.
Think again about the origins of ‘conservative’ and the kinship between ‘conservatie’ and ‘conservation’.
What passes for ‘conservatism’ in the US today is as far from the origins of conservatismm as it can be. Up is down, black is white, good is bad, rich is poor in today’s inverted world; the people with the most power in this nation — Limbaugh, Rove, Rumsfeld, Robertson, DeLay — see themselves as most victimized.
I believe that people can see for themselves, work for themselves, think for themselves — and when they do they won’t buy the tired lies of corporatism disguised anymore.
“If you think my questions exaggerate your positions on society, please leave a short descripition of the utopia you wish America was.”
I dunno – how about a country devoid of shrill, uninformed, divisive wanks like you? Funny website though – nice to see someone is leading the crusade against those dangerous, un-American civil liberties.
My liberal utopia: fewer straw men, more real men.
These answers are a little abstract. Beyond the little phrases, and Bush bashes, I wanted to hear your real hippy dreamworld ideas, you know…
imagine theres no heaven
I wonder if you can
no hell below us
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people, living life in peace. yoo hoo oooohh, you can say that I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one….
C’mon you all know the words.
I want to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony…
C’mon! Break on through to the other side!
I WAS A “STAR TREK” LIBERAL. I WANTED “COSMIC JUSTICE” FOR ALL OF HUMANITY, HOPING THAT OUR FUTURE WOULD LOOK SOMETHING LIKE THE FEDERATION REPRESENTED IN THE LATER S.T. SERIES. I NEVER UNDERSTOOD, OR BELIEVED IN THE PART ABOUT ABOLISHING MONEY ON EARTH, THOUGH.
I TENDED TO AGREE WITH ANYONE I THOUGHT WAS DOING “GOOD,” (GREENPEACE, PETA, NOW,ACLU)WITHOUT CHECKING THINGS OUT. I BOUGHT THE AGITPROP FOR YEARS, WITHOUT REALLY CARING IF IT WAS TRUE OR NOT. I’M SORRY ABOUT THAT, AND EMBARASSED. CALL IT MY LIBERAL CONFESSION.
PS: LEAVWORLD IS BACK ONLINE, AS EVIDENCED BY MY LEAVING THESE COMMENTS. THE STOP SITE LOOKS GREAT, AND I HOPE MY FORMER LIBERAL VISION IS ACCEPTABLE HERE.
Jay’s snarky comment illustrates why this blog and his ideology is devoid of redeeming value.
Having already debunked Jay’s lies about the ACLU hating Christians (http://www.preemptivekarma.com/archives/2005/04/repost_the_aclu.html Note that nobody rebutted the post itself), now I see him offering up a caricature of a liberal. Anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, who has even a passing grasp of American politics knows that former President Jimmy Carter is not only a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, but he’s also a devout Southern Baptist who has taught a regular Sunday School class for decades at his home church in Georgia, and he’s also published a Christian book which is a collection of his favorite SS class outlines or lectures. I happen to own a copy of it.
Last but not least… my newest bumper sticker: “Stop using my religion to sell your politics.”
Think about it.
It looks as if you’re not going to get any liberals that will answer your question, Jay.
The reason you’re not getting a straight response Jay, is because liberals are incapable of normal conversation that entails them actually having a position on any subject.
Liberals love a good argument because that’s all they know how to do. They argue with no real solution or idea to any problem, but the pure hatred of Bush and conservatives stem back to the 2000 election, when they thought for sure that Clinton left an impression on the American public that would hand Gore the presidency.
So until they’re back in power, God himself could desend on the earth, for example, and they would want to argue whether he exists or not.
what is the question, exactly? You’ve posed a set of hypothetical questions directed at a straw man–you’re arguing with yourself. i’ve read a few posts that are trying to show you just that. you’re directing a lot of anger towards a “liberal” caricature. no, no one wants a society devoid of right and wrong; most people want accountability, especially from their government, which another post has already addressed. (but this is dismissed as bush-bashing.) no one wants government to take care of all their needs, but would you rather have indigent elderly fend for themselves? what kind of pie in the sky free market fantasy are you living in? who will build our roads, provide for national defense, protect our national parks, make sure that poor children don’t starve to death, to name a few of the great things our gov’t can do.
As far as the entitlement and dependency question, I think you are addressing welfare programs, but i’m not sure. there are no easy answers for how to deal with poverty. as someone who has lived in brooklyn, you see firsthand just how destitute some americans are and how miserable life can be in ghettos. i have a question for you–should we turn a deaf ear on our nation’s impoverished and their children? completely eliminate food stamps and school lunch programs? public housing is a horrible solution to poverty (it breeds crime and despair), but what do you think should be done?
life in desperately poor urban and rural areas is harder than anything most of us can imagine. schools in these areas are underfunded and can’t attract teachers, jobs are very low paying, and renters are preyed upon by slum lords. will the free market solve these problems?
most liberals, at least the ones I know, don’t want radical change in american society. i want to maintain the social safety net established in the 1930s. but obviously, it needs improvement–not dismantling! treating the poor as your enemy is not very productive. anyone can find themselves unemployed, or have their savings wiped out, or born to poor, uneducated parents in a ghetto where they never learn basic skills required to get a decent job.
there are no easy answers, although blind faith in an ideology (be it laissez faire or communism) makes it seem that way. for example, rumsfeld believed that the establishment of democracy in iraq would be a piece of cake–2000 dead americans and billions of taxpayer dollars later, we haven’t found osama, wmd’s, and the violence continues. most “liberals” and even some “conservatives” are united by their hatred of the ideology embodied by the current administration, which wants radical changes at the expense of responsible fiscal policy. states are going broke and are debt and trade deficits are growing.
again, no “liberal” i know wants a utopia (but then again, none of them are in high school or college, which breeds simplified world views because people are trying things out…see the post about the guy who belonged to peta and greenpeace). they want america to have a strong, complex economy (not just service sector), the best health care in the world (we don’t), a well defined division between church and state, a strong homeland security dept (do we?), among other things. essentially, most “liberals” i know want us to be number one, and we all feel like the u.s. is falling behind right now, rather than keeping up. these are people in the corporate world, blue collar people, my dad (bricklayer), and even a couple of ex military.
thanks for the opportunity to provide my views. your website looks very professional, even though i can’t quite understand why you have the hammer and sickle worked into the aclu logo thing. the red scare thing is a little joe mccarthy/1950s.
thanks again, and keep expressing your opinions, which the constitution guarantees you have the right to do.
Congratulations Mike for the first real answer to my question here. Thank you for sharing it.
I believe there is a balance that can be met, and that no one has all the answers. However, the majority of liberals I have met have some pretty out in the stratosphere ideals, actually pretty utopia like ones.
I think most liberals have heart felt convictions they are doing what is good, but lack common sense.
well, thank you. perhaps the majority of “liberals” you have met seem to lack common sense because they are high school or college age? i’m not trying to insult you, that just seems like a probably cause for your dilemma. as people get older, the smart ones mellow out a little.
but i think “conservatives” can share this lack of common sense and misled idealism just as well. for example, thinking that eliminating welfare will solve more problems than it creates or responding to the attacks of 9-11 by conquering iraq. these are political issues that i think over time, as the polarization that’s preventing our country from moving forward dies down, more people will begin to see eye to eye on. (and this is why so many people despise bush–he is not moderate and is perceived to be a divisive figure.)
however, the issues on religion and morality are ages old and i doubt will ever be resolved. Gay rights, for example–i can’t understand why anyone in the 21st century would want to deny civil unions to a gay couple. I guess this is one of my “utopian fantasies” (not a sexual fantasy–i’m straight i tell ya!). gays should be allowed the same benefits as married couples–jeez, they can’t help that their gay! why should we deny them that? Abortion, another heated example. i’ve noticed that the pro-life leaders who aren’t men are often women who ‘ve admitted to having abortions. does this make sense to you? outlaw abortion, and you’re gonna create a public health dilemma. but if you believe an embryo is a person, we’ll never see eye to eye–i just have to remind you of the thousands of embryos that fertility clinics dump out when they “expire”. i expect to see some outrage about that.
while i was raised religious, i’m not a particularly religious person. i think it’s best to keep religion out of gov’t to a reasonable degree–i don’t care if the public schools have christmas parties or easter egg hunts. however, you have to be careful about the separation: look at the middle east. Saudi Arabia, iran, syria: these countries suck because they are all theocracies. intolerant, women, gay and minority hating, no- separation- of church- and- state having theocratic suckfests of countries.
do i sound like i lack common sense? i share the views of lots of other “liberals”, just so you know. there’s a lot of red-herring stuff going on on both sides, distracting us from the real issues: how do we keep our economy strong, our people smart, happy and healthy, and foster good relations with (sometimes hostile and insane theocratic) other countries?
i might not be the best person to discuss this with–if you’re looking for a heated, irrational debate. lately, we’ve all been made to feel like we have to choose sides, and to some degree we do. it’s a good strategy for those who believe the evidence shows that our country is in a downward spiral. there is a balance, jay, but it will not exist for a while, and it makes me a little worried as to how many more catastrophes, blunders, death, and wasted money will have to blindside our country before we realize we need more responsible and accountable leaders, media, and, yes, citizens.
It’s the extremism of liberalism that I am against, hence this site. You don’t care if a school has a Christmas play that involves a manger scene? The ACLU does. How about voluntary prayer groups at the flag pole before school? ACLU says no.
As far as abortion goes. We will definitely never see eye to eye on this. Murder should always be illegal. Perhaps more morals in America could encourage abstinence, which I still can’t figure out why so many liberals are against teaching.
Gay marraige. Much of that hinges on whether you think it is natural, or not. They definitely can’t reproduce naturally now can they? It is a dangerous practice, again to public health concerns…homosexuality presents much more of a danger than not killing babies.
Civil unions? I don’t care, sounds like an issue that should be decided state by state, since it will be their tax money involved. marraige is a religious union however, and I can’t see that being compromised without compromising one’s faith.
jay, common sense involves understanding how complex it is to implement seemingly simple solutions. You want to “teach morality.” great. how do you go about this? it’s a lot easier to teach kids about sex and the consequences, especially if their parents are unwilling or ignorant as to how to tell their kids about, say, how to use a condom. i guess what you would rather have is the mr. mackey approach: “sex is bad, umkay…don’t have sex.”
i think it is instructive to look at the logical extension of what you think you want: a theocracy. look at saudi arabia or iran. is that something we want to emulate? freedom of religion means freedom from religion as well.
and remember, jay, being christian never stopped anyone from having premarital sex, being a child molester, or a drug addict if they so desired.
as far as the aclu: there are things the aclu has defended that i think are great, other things i don’t really care about, and things i despise. the flag pole prayer rally is something i don’t know anything about, so i can’t comment.
but if it’s any consolation for you, i have no problem with nativity plays or christmas decorations. but remember, not everyone is christian–it’s easy to forget unless you live in a city where there is a diverse population. how would you feel if you were, say a muslim student in a predominantly white or black christian school? everyday, people were teasing you (or even threatening you) about your race and religion–maybe you can understand why some people get upset about jesus being pushed in their face (especially if they don’t think he’s the son of god).
i too believe that murder is wrong, which is why i was opposed to the bombing of innocent civilians in iraq and am appalled by the genocide occuring in Sudan. it is also why i am so opposed to the theocratic sponsorship of terror, particularly countries like saudi arabia and afghanistan.
moving onto gay marriages–still can’t understand why you don’t tolerate homosexuals. straight people are just as good at spreading disease as gays. i don’t understand why you think gay marriage would involve state tax money. maybe you could clarify.
one more thing. marriage is a legal union–i know, my wife and i got married by a justice of the peace. you can inject as much and whatever kind of religion into the ceremony as you want, cuz we live in the good ol’ u.s.a. when you wanna complain about how you’re persecuted because you’re christian, or nobody is living up to your moral standards, why don’t you try one of these theocratic countries–see how well they tolerate you.
i’m not sure why you’re complaining to begin with–the country has definitely become more “conservative” in the past five years. if not fiscally, then ideologically. with robert’s appointment to the sc, roe v wade might be reversed. so let go of the anger. nobody’s out to get you! least of all gays and “liberals.” As jesus said, “love one another.”
aw, it’s so nice of y’all to let me have the final word.