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	<title>Comments on: ACLU Fights The People of Hawaii To Protect Their Children</title>
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	<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/</link>
	<description>Beating Them With Their Own Sickle And Hammer</description>
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		<title>By: Bret Wengeler</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/comment-page-1/#comment-35683</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Wengeler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/#comment-35683</guid>
		<description>I believe I understand what you&#039;re saying, Jay. Don&#039;t get me wrong --I&#039;m with anyone in locking up, and in some extreme cases -- like the recent one in Idaho -- of executing people who prey on our most defensless citizens -- the children.

	But I must urge caution when it comes to passing new legislation in a climate of fear and anger.

	May I use the gun control lobby as an example for the dangers I see in more &#039;predator&#039; legislation? Gun conrol advocates are always calling for new and more restrictive laws to take guns away from people. Conservatives argue that we should just enforce the laws we already have. Few conservatives say that convicted felons should be allowed to carry guns, but also recognize as bogus the Left&#039;s sensationalizing of emotionally charged and high profile incidents such as Columbine to force through more gun control legislation that results in the disarming of honest citizens. The Left continuously broadens the defintion of &#039;assault rifle&#039;, and makes up terms for non-entities such as &#039;saturday night specials&#039; for the purpose of inciting the public to demand new laws. The result is more stealth legislation than does nothing to decrease gun violence, but only weakens the individual citizen&#039;s freedom and choice to protect themselves, and increases the governments&#039;s power to control the individual.

	In like manner, I&#039;m not arguing that children shouldn&#039;t be protected from predators. But we already have laws against rape, molestation, and sexual exploitation of children. Violation of these laws comes with severe penalties. Why not just enforce the laws we already have?
	How justified are we in locking people up forever when we are continuously broadening the definition of &#039;molestation&#039; of &#039;predator&#039;? What was once innocent behavior, like skinny dipping at Summer Camp --almost an American tradition -- can now get a camp councilor a life sentence.

	Whenever I hear of new laws to &#039;protect the children&#039;, my alarm bells go off. I smell stealth legislation. Such laws seldom do anything to address the problems they claim to remedy. They merely broaden the definition of what is criminal, and increase the State&#039;s power to interfere with the individual&#039;s -- in this case the parent&#039;s -- right to decide what best for thier own children. If you think that new laws passed in the spirit of moral outrage won&#039;t be bent to purposes
	far removed from the scope of rape and molestation, then you put way too much faith in the goodwill of the State.

	In conclusion: I&#039;m no fan of the ACLU, they do a great deal of harm to our society. I think that most of their energy is spent on things that have nothing to do with civil liberities. But who else is standing up to put the brakes on increasing government power? Where are the conservative legal organizations telling the government &#039;No! You can&#039;t have unlimited power!&#039;?

	I guess we could put a stop to child molesters if we just put everyone in prision for life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe I understand what you&#8217;re saying, Jay. Don&#8217;t get me wrong &#8211;I&#8217;m with anyone in locking up, and in some extreme cases &#8212; like the recent one in Idaho &#8212; of executing people who prey on our most defensless citizens &#8212; the children.</p>
<p>	But I must urge caution when it comes to passing new legislation in a climate of fear and anger.</p>
<p>	May I use the gun control lobby as an example for the dangers I see in more &#8216;predator&#8217; legislation? Gun conrol advocates are always calling for new and more restrictive laws to take guns away from people. Conservatives argue that we should just enforce the laws we already have. Few conservatives say that convicted felons should be allowed to carry guns, but also recognize as bogus the Left&#8217;s sensationalizing of emotionally charged and high profile incidents such as Columbine to force through more gun control legislation that results in the disarming of honest citizens. The Left continuously broadens the defintion of &#8216;assault rifle&#8217;, and makes up terms for non-entities such as &#8217;saturday night specials&#8217; for the purpose of inciting the public to demand new laws. The result is more stealth legislation than does nothing to decrease gun violence, but only weakens the individual citizen&#8217;s freedom and choice to protect themselves, and increases the governments&#8217;s power to control the individual.</p>
<p>	In like manner, I&#8217;m not arguing that children shouldn&#8217;t be protected from predators. But we already have laws against rape, molestation, and sexual exploitation of children. Violation of these laws comes with severe penalties. Why not just enforce the laws we already have?<br />
	How justified are we in locking people up forever when we are continuously broadening the definition of &#8216;molestation&#8217; of &#8216;predator&#8217;? What was once innocent behavior, like skinny dipping at Summer Camp &#8211;almost an American tradition &#8212; can now get a camp councilor a life sentence.</p>
<p>	Whenever I hear of new laws to &#8216;protect the children&#8217;, my alarm bells go off. I smell stealth legislation. Such laws seldom do anything to address the problems they claim to remedy. They merely broaden the definition of what is criminal, and increase the State&#8217;s power to interfere with the individual&#8217;s &#8212; in this case the parent&#8217;s &#8212; right to decide what best for thier own children. If you think that new laws passed in the spirit of moral outrage won&#8217;t be bent to purposes<br />
	far removed from the scope of rape and molestation, then you put way too much faith in the goodwill of the State.</p>
<p>	In conclusion: I&#8217;m no fan of the ACLU, they do a great deal of harm to our society. I think that most of their energy is spent on things that have nothing to do with civil liberities. But who else is standing up to put the brakes on increasing government power? Where are the conservative legal organizations telling the government &#8216;No! You can&#8217;t have unlimited power!&#8217;?</p>
<p>	I guess we could put a stop to child molesters if we just put everyone in prision for life.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark S.</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/comment-page-1/#comment-35682</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:05:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/#comment-35682</guid>
		<description>A few points:

	First, the Supreme Court did not strike down the law on the merits but instead struck it down for the legislature&#039;s procedural errors.

	Second, I notice none of the posts supporting this predator law argues in favor of changing the rules and procedures necessary for a constitutional amendment in Hawaii.  Even the ACLU did not argue on the law&#039;s merits but simply argued the law was unconstitutionally put on the ballot.

	Third, the scope of the bill&#039;s text is far smaller than the scope of ignoring legislative procedure.  The bill&#039;s text only affects a small population -- child sex offenders.  The procedure, or abuse of procedure, used to pass this amendment is wide in scope.  A procedural violation is far more egregious than a contextual one because it&#039;s potential impact on the legislative process is far greater.  I simply cannot support a political philosophy that has, at its core, the belief that the means justify the ends.

	If the law was so great and had such wide support, why didn&#039;t the legislature follow the constitutional procedure and avoid this mess?  Why did they feel the need to ignore the rules?  Child predator laws are a good thing but I cannot support a violation of constitutionally mandated procedure to get those laws on the books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few points:</p>
<p>	First, the Supreme Court did not strike down the law on the merits but instead struck it down for the legislature&#8217;s procedural errors.</p>
<p>	Second, I notice none of the posts supporting this predator law argues in favor of changing the rules and procedures necessary for a constitutional amendment in Hawaii.  Even the ACLU did not argue on the law&#8217;s merits but simply argued the law was unconstitutionally put on the ballot.</p>
<p>	Third, the scope of the bill&#8217;s text is far smaller than the scope of ignoring legislative procedure.  The bill&#8217;s text only affects a small population &#8212; child sex offenders.  The procedure, or abuse of procedure, used to pass this amendment is wide in scope.  A procedural violation is far more egregious than a contextual one because it&#8217;s potential impact on the legislative process is far greater.  I simply cannot support a political philosophy that has, at its core, the belief that the means justify the ends.</p>
<p>	If the law was so great and had such wide support, why didn&#8217;t the legislature follow the constitutional procedure and avoid this mess?  Why did they feel the need to ignore the rules?  Child predator laws are a good thing but I cannot support a violation of constitutionally mandated procedure to get those laws on the books.</p>
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		<title>By: Amy P</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/comment-page-1/#comment-35681</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2005 14:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/#comment-35681</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jay!  I should be in LGF this weekend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jay!  I should be in LGF this weekend.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/comment-page-1/#comment-35680</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/#comment-35680</guid>
		<description>You actually make a valid point.  However, keep in mind, in this case we are talking about repeat offenders and sexual abuse.  We are not saying they shouldn&#039;t be represented, but once found guilty...come on!  Personally I think such a person should be locked away...but come on...you can at least agree that three strikes and you are out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You actually make a valid point.  However, keep in mind, in this case we are talking about repeat offenders and sexual abuse.  We are not saying they shouldn&#8217;t be represented, but once found guilty&#8230;come on!  Personally I think such a person should be locked away&#8230;but come on&#8230;you can at least agree that three strikes and you are out.</p>
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		<title>By: Bret Wengeler</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/comment-page-1/#comment-35679</link>
		<dc:creator>Bret Wengeler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2005 07:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/#comment-35679</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t agree with many of the things that the ACLU stands for. (opposing school vouchers is hardly a &#039;civil liberties&#039; issue.) But, they have been insturmental in limiting the power of the state. How is it that conservatives are always talking about how government solutions are inferior,and that big govt. is bad, yet they seem so eager to hand the government more power to investigate, prosecute and incarcerate? If there&#039;s one thing I don&#039;t want the govt. to be able to do easily is to throw people in prison and to keep them there for a very long time. So many of you are railing against the &#039;child molesters&#039;. Fine -- people who truly use children for sexual gratification must be stopped. But let&#039;s agree upon what child sexual abuse really is before we start locking people up and throwing away the key. The definition has broadend so far in just the past few years, that what was once considered normal, innocent behavior is now labeled &#039;child abuse&#039;. When I was a child in Hawaii in the 1970&#039;s, I would often run naked through the sprinklers in the yard. If I were a child today, and tried the same thing, I can&#039;t help but suspect that my parents would be jailed for allowing such freedom and innocence. The hysteria surrounding &#039;predators&#039; of children has resulted in mothers being jailed for taking pictures of their own children in the bath tub, and even the little girl on the coppertone ad -- once a charming symbol of innocence -- has now been forced to cover up her formally bare bottom. People keep crying out for new laws and there is no end to the flood of new legislation in sight. Do you really think that all these new laws &#039;to protect the children&#039; aren&#039;t going to be used to justify govt. power grabs that have nothing to do with sexual &#039;predators&#039;? If you really believe that, you haven&#039;t been paying attention. I&#039;m seeing less and less differences between Liberals and Conservatives -- they both have a rabid desire to grow the government as big as possible, and to expand the definitions of what is punishible by law. The definiton of a free country is not the one with the most people in jail for the longest period of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t agree with many of the things that the ACLU stands for. (opposing school vouchers is hardly a &#8216;civil liberties&#8217; issue.) But, they have been insturmental in limiting the power of the state. How is it that conservatives are always talking about how government solutions are inferior,and that big govt. is bad, yet they seem so eager to hand the government more power to investigate, prosecute and incarcerate? If there&#8217;s one thing I don&#8217;t want the govt. to be able to do easily is to throw people in prison and to keep them there for a very long time. So many of you are railing against the &#8216;child molesters&#8217;. Fine &#8212; people who truly use children for sexual gratification must be stopped. But let&#8217;s agree upon what child sexual abuse really is before we start locking people up and throwing away the key. The definition has broadend so far in just the past few years, that what was once considered normal, innocent behavior is now labeled &#8216;child abuse&#8217;. When I was a child in Hawaii in the 1970&#8217;s, I would often run naked through the sprinklers in the yard. If I were a child today, and tried the same thing, I can&#8217;t help but suspect that my parents would be jailed for allowing such freedom and innocence. The hysteria surrounding &#8216;predators&#8217; of children has resulted in mothers being jailed for taking pictures of their own children in the bath tub, and even the little girl on the coppertone ad &#8212; once a charming symbol of innocence &#8212; has now been forced to cover up her formally bare bottom. People keep crying out for new laws and there is no end to the flood of new legislation in sight. Do you really think that all these new laws &#8216;to protect the children&#8217; aren&#8217;t going to be used to justify govt. power grabs that have nothing to do with sexual &#8216;predators&#8217;? If you really believe that, you haven&#8217;t been paying attention. I&#8217;m seeing less and less differences between Liberals and Conservatives &#8212; they both have a rabid desire to grow the government as big as possible, and to expand the definitions of what is punishible by law. The definiton of a free country is not the one with the most people in jail for the longest period of time.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/comment-page-1/#comment-35678</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2005 03:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/#comment-35678</guid>
		<description>I agree, some seem to miss the point that these are repeat offenders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, some seem to miss the point that these are repeat offenders.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter E. Wallis</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/comment-page-1/#comment-35677</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter E. Wallis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2005 03:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/#comment-35677</guid>
		<description>It is almost never guilt any more with the ACLU. It is a gotcha Simon Sez game. We need to revise intervenor funding laws to limit the number of interventions that can be funded to one per organization per year. And we need to make someone who springs a guilty party a guarantor of good behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is almost never guilt any more with the ACLU. It is a gotcha Simon Sez game. We need to revise intervenor funding laws to limit the number of interventions that can be funded to one per organization per year. And we need to make someone who springs a guilty party a guarantor of good behavior.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/comment-page-1/#comment-35676</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/#comment-35676</guid>
		<description>I agree, but the ACLU does not get off the hook that easy.

	If you look around you will see that I am also very concerned with the judicial branch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, but the ACLU does not get off the hook that easy.</p>
<p>	If you look around you will see that I am also very concerned with the judicial branch.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/comment-page-1/#comment-35675</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I dislike the political agenda of the ACLU just as much as anybody, but who do you blame when the legal issues they raise are adopted by judges?  Lawyers are free to raise any issue they want.  If judges and juries are dumb enough to buy into them, who is the real culprit?  The real problems in our society are a culture of looney liberalism and gullible jurists and juries who are swayed by faulty logic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dislike the political agenda of the ACLU just as much as anybody, but who do you blame when the legal issues they raise are adopted by judges?  Lawyers are free to raise any issue they want.  If judges and juries are dumb enough to buy into them, who is the real culprit?  The real problems in our society are a culture of looney liberalism and gullible jurists and juries who are swayed by faulty logic.</p>
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		<title>By: Dethanial</title>
		<link>http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/comment-page-1/#comment-35674</link>
		<dc:creator>Dethanial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 18:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stoptheaclu.dreamhosters.com/archives/2005/09/06/aclu-fights-the-people-of-hawaii-to-protect-their-children/#comment-35674</guid>
		<description>Kevin need to do a little research on the ACLU or read this blog more often.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin need to do a little research on the ACLU or read this blog more often.</p>
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